RE: [v6ops] Combining IPv6 ND and DHCPv6 into a single, unified function

"Templin, Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> Tue, 21 November 2017 15:59 UTC

Return-Path: <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>
X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F20812EBA8; Tue, 21 Nov 2017 07:59:51 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -4.221
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.221 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0b0zPSomPZxK; Tue, 21 Nov 2017 07:59:49 -0800 (PST)
Received: from phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net [130.76.184.179]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4083A1296B0; Tue, 21 Nov 2017 07:57:40 -0800 (PST)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/DOWNSTREAM_MBSOUT) with SMTP id vALFvcvU025442; Tue, 21 Nov 2017 08:57:38 -0700
Received: from XCH15-06-10.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch15-06-10.nw.nos.boeing.com [137.136.239.219]) by phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTP id vALFvTCG025189 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 21 Nov 2017 08:57:29 -0700
Received: from XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com (2002:8988:eede::8988:eede) by XCH15-06-10.nw.nos.boeing.com (2002:8988:efdb::8988:efdb) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Tue, 21 Nov 2017 07:57:29 -0800
Received: from XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com ([137.136.238.222]) by XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com ([137.136.238.222]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Tue, 21 Nov 2017 07:57:29 -0800
From: "Templin, Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>
To: Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se>, Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>
CC: "dhcwg@ietf.org" <dhcwg@ietf.org>, v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org>, 6MAN <6man@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [v6ops] Combining IPv6 ND and DHCPv6 into a single, unified function
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] Combining IPv6 ND and DHCPv6 into a single, unified function
Thread-Index: AdNiReoj4OrwrQYST+iGtIF1uM57NgAhww6AAAHoKYAAAvzUoA==
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2017 15:57:29 +0000
Message-ID: <a1a6597df13e461092c452d2b0e1927c@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com>
References: <9debb1672e3d4f0d89d672d64e0fe579@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <CAO42Z2x8h7RVXP5Hy4vaDXc8kpZBSxJAq=Z7xXTsNN4R8E-Qgw@mail.gmail.com> <alpine.DEB.2.20.1711210720520.32099@uplift.swm.pp.se>
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.20.1711210720520.32099@uplift.swm.pp.se>
Accept-Language: en-US
Content-Language: en-US
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted
x-originating-ip: [137.137.12.6]
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-TM-AS-MML: disable
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/7ZgkVrLoCh12-YcKf4x_c4Jx4M4>
X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22
Precedence: list
List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" <ipv6.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ipv6>, <mailto:ipv6-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/>
List-Post: <mailto:ipv6@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ipv6-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6>, <mailto:ipv6-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2017 15:59:52 -0000

Hi Mikael,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mikael Abrahamsson [mailto:swmike@swm.pp.se]
> Sent: Monday, November 20, 2017 10:26 PM
> To: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>;
> Cc: Templin, Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>;; dhcwg@ietf.org; v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org>;; 6MAN <6man@ietf.org>;
> Subject: Re: [v6ops] Combining IPv6 ND and DHCPv6 into a single, unified function
> 
> On Tue, 21 Nov 2017, Mark Smith wrote:
> 
> > Hi Fred,
> >
> > I think this fundamentally violates the principle that the network is
> > application agnostic or transparent, allowing it to support any new host
> > residing application without any upgrades to the network. I think the
> > principle of network application transparency should apply to application
> > configuration.
> >
> > We don't have to upgrade routers to carry new application protocols, we
> > shouldn't have to upgrade routers to support configuring new applications.
> >
> > "Internet Transparency and Application Configuration"
> >
> > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-smith-v6ops-ce-dhcpv6-transparency-00#section-2
> 
> DHCP is a pain for rapidly changing (perhaps mobile) environments. It's

I am using DHCPv6 PD for mobile hosts and networks over VPNs and it works
great. If the node moves, it simply sends an IPv6ND unsolicited NA message
to update the router's neighbor cache, and the prefix delegation remains
stable. 

> fundamentally a polling protocol where the network hands out resources for
> a certain amount of time, and there is little chance to invalidate them.

DHCPv6 Release is the client's function for invalidating prefix delegations.
DHCPv6 Reconfigure is the router's function for invalidating them.

> It's stateful.

Anything that manages a delegated prefix is going to necessarily be stateful.
If a different stateful protocol were developed it would be a functional
equivalent of DHCPv6. 

> Devices need addresses to communicate. So if environments that are dynamic
> and require fast/short setup times to gain addresses, then we need the
> network to support that.
> 
> This is not an "application" as in a program running somewhere. This is a
> deployment scenario where devices need addresses quickly with short
> turnaround times and in a bandwidth constrained environment. Saying we
> can't change the network to support this is just silly.
> 
> So you think 6lo was a bad idea and violated the network agonostic
> principle?

I don't know how the above relates to DHCPv6.

Thanks - Fred
fred.l.templin@boeing.com
 
> --
> Mikael Abrahamsson    email: swmike@swm.pp.se