RE: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements?
<mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> Mon, 20 November 2017 12:21 UTC
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From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com
To: Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>
CC: Jen Linkova <furry13@gmail.com>, 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>, Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org>
Subject: RE: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements?
Thread-Topic: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements?
Thread-Index: AQHTYeum5aCFTrEcrUibDPVkNExo9aMdK0uA
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2017 12:21:27 +0000
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Re-, Please see inline. Cheers, Med > -----Message d'origine----- > De : Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org] > Envoyé : lundi 20 novembre 2017 11:38 > À : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN > Cc : Jen Linkova; 6man WG; Mark Andrews > Objet : Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? > > Med, > > >>> > >>> [Med] As you are mentioning "IETF" explicitly, NAT64 may not be the > >> appropriate "IPv4 service continuity" solution here. > >> > >> Why not? > > > > [Med] Because dual-stack can do the job without any extra effort. > > That's not a valid answer, when the question to be explored is "Is it > possible to run IPv6 only hosts?". [Med] You should admit that there are questions that don't make sense if not contextualized. > > The arguments against dual stack: > - expensive to operate > - little progress towards the end goal of IPv6 only [Med] These are generic statements, Ole. We are talking about the IETF case. * The IETF has no control on the hosts that connect to the IETF network, * IETF attendees who are using corporate devices, have no control on these hosts So, how forcing devices to use "IPv6+nat64" will help here? > > I think you can make a fair case that the end-user experience today is > best with IPv4 only. [Med] It depends for "which user", Ole. Consider the example of a bittorrent user who may prefer IPv6 vs. IPv4. > > >> Interesting to hear your views here, especially since it "almost" > worked > >> at IETF100. > > > > [Med] I don't have any doubt that NAT64 will work module some issues and > fixes (more can be found in https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6889#section-3 > (Analysis of Stateful 64 Translation)). There are deployments cases where > these fixes are wroth to be enforced, while it is not justified in others. > I'm for NAT64 as an "IPv4 service continuity" for mobile networks where > there is a pressure on private IPv4 addresses, but I'm for DS-Lite and > MAP-E for fixed networks given there is no implications on the host > itself; the "complexity" will be hidden by a CPE. > > > > It is a case by case exercise. > > Again, trying to move us forward with IPv6 only hosts. > > >>> I need: > >>>> - No dependency on DNS64. Want to use recursive resolver I trust plus > >>>> local validating resolver. > >>>> - Not depend on the success of PCP for NAT64 prefix discovery > >>>> - If the host couldn't learn the NAT64 prefix any other way, I > suppose > >> it > >>>> could throw an ICMP echo towards > >>>> 64:ff9b::127.0.0.1 (or perhaps just 64:ff9b::) > >>>> > >>> > >>> [Med] Fair. That is another "add my favorite solution" to the list. > >>> > >>>> But I also see there being different deployment options here. > >>>> Btw, for multiple NSPs, couldn't you partly solve that by injecting > >> more > >>>> specifics into routing? > >>> > >>> [Med] It is not only about forwarding/routing, but also how a host can > >> pick the appropriate prefix64 for address synthesis. Things may be > obvious > >> if you can consider the example of RFC7050: > >>> > >>> > >>> NAT64 "A" ----- IPv4-only servers in a data center > >>> / > >>> IPv6-only node---< > >>> \ > >>> NAT64 "B" ----- IPv4 Internet > >> > >> Firstly this seems like it is over engineered. Has anyone actually > >> deployed NAT64 this way? > > > > [Med] This is a scenario that can be considered by some mobile operators > at the Gi interface. Multiple prefixes are discussed in Section 4.2. of > RFC7269 (NAT64 Deployment Options and Experience) that was produced by > v6ops. > > You can achieve load-balancing without having to push that requirement all > the way down to the host. [Med] I know. There is no reco to achieve NAT64 load-balancing. It is legitimate to hear from both of them. > > >> (Given that this is quite rare even in IPv6 only or IPv4 only > scenarios. > >> Look at implementation status of RIO for example). > >> > >> Secondly, RFC7050 says: > >> > >> The heuristic discovery method described herein does not support > >> learning of the possible rules used by a DNS64 server for mapping > >> specific IPv4 address ranges to separate Pref64::/n prefixes. > >> Therefore, nodes will use the same discovered Pref64::/n to > >> synthesize IPv6 addresses from any IPv4 address. This can cause > >> issues for routing and connectivity establishment procedures. The > >> operator of the NAT64 and the DNS64 ought to take this into account > >> in the network design. > >> > >> Which to me reads, this just doesn't work. > > > > [Med] Correct. This is one of the limitations of the heuristic approach. > > > >> > >> If we think NAT64 is a fundamental piece of technology to make progress > on > >> the transition, then I think we should focus on making it as simple and > >> deployable as possible. > > > > [Med] NAT64 spec does not make any assumption about the deployment case. > Its limitations are well-known and documented since years. > > > > IMHO, the required pieces for "simple" deployment scenarios are out > there: > > - prefix discovery using the heuristic > > - local address synthesis to solve issues related to address > literals/referrals. > > > > Advanced features have been also specified, e.g., > > - if you want to allow for incoming connections: e.g., access a video > server > > - if you want to avoid overloading NAT64 with all sorts of ALGs > > - if you want to avoid draining the battery of your mobile because of > the keepalive messages > > Yep, but I think the cat is largely out of the bag here, and an > application must work in the "smallest common denominator" network. [Med] More concretely? > > Cheers, > Ole
- IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ca By
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Tim Chown
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ca By
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Rajiv Asati (rajiva)
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Tim Chown
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Philip Homburg
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Philip Homburg
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ca By
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ca By
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ca By
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Philip Homburg
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ca By
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Philip Homburg
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Philip Homburg
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Mark Andrews
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Philip Homburg
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Mark Andrews
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- IPv4 only apps [was: IPv6 only host NAT64 require… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv4 only apps [was: IPv6 only host NAT64 req… Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv4 only apps [was: IPv6 only host NAT64 req… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv4 only apps [was: IPv6 only host NAT64 req… Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Michael Richardson
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Philip Homburg
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Michael Richardson
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Mark Andrews
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ca By
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Jen Linkova
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Erik Kline
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Jen Linkova
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Mark Andrews
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- RE: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? mohamed.boucadair
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? james woodyatt
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? james woodyatt
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? james woodyatt
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ca By
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? james woodyatt
- RE: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? mohamed.boucadair
- RE: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? mohamed.boucadair
- PCP, and 6434bis (was Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 re… Tim Chown
- Re: PCP, and 6434bis (was Re: IPv6 only host NAT6… Ca By
- Re: PCP, and 6434bis (was Re: IPv6 only host NAT6… Tim Chown
- Re: PCP, and 6434bis (was Re: IPv6 only host NAT6… Ca By
- Re: PCP, and 6434bis (was Re: IPv6 only host NAT6… james woodyatt
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Michael Richardson
- Re: PCP, and 6434bis (was Re: IPv6 only host NAT6… Michael Richardson
- Re: PCP, and 6434bis (was Re: IPv6 only host NAT6… james woodyatt
- Re: PCP, and 6434bis (was Re: IPv6 only host NAT6… Mark Andrews
- RE: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? mohamed.boucadair
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Jen Linkova
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Fred Baker
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Fred Baker
- RE: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? mohamed.boucadair
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: PCP, and 6434bis (was Re: IPv6 only host NAT6… Tim Chown
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? james woodyatt
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Jen Linkova
- Re: PCP, and 6434bis (was Re: IPv6 only host NAT6… Fernando Gont
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Simon Hobson
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ca By
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Mark Andrews
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Mikael Abrahamsson
- RE: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? mohamed.boucadair
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- RE: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? mohamed.boucadair
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Mark Andrews
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- RE: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? mohamed.boucadair
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Michael Richardson
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- RE: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? mohamed.boucadair
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- RE: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Manfredi, Albert E
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Jen Linkova
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Jen Linkova
- RE: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Manfredi, Albert E
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Lee Howard
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Lee Howard
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Mark Andrews
- RE: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Masanobu Kawashima
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Jen Linkova
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ola Thoresen
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ca By
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter