Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net> Thu, 27 February 2020 18:09 UTC
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From: Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 13:09:01 -0500
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Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Cc: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" <evyncke=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, John Leddy <john@leddy.net>, SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>, "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
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On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 8:14 PM Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: [SNIP] > > It's possible that "penultimate" means something else, e.g. "ultimate". I don't know. I've been puzzling over this language for months and it doesn't change. Maybe someone can finally post an explanation, but until they do, I don't see how any WG Chair could assert rough consensus. An obviously organised +1+1+1+1 campaign is not consensus. I don't know about you, but when I see a message whose only content is "+1" I just delete it. Actually, when I see a message whose content is just "+1" (or something similar like "I support this"), and the sender hasn't been deeply involved in the conversation, I start thinking it is vote stuffing. If this happens repeatedly I become increasingly convinced of this. "We reject: kings, presidents, and voting. We believe in: rough consensus and running code." - we don't vote. Having a thousand people who have not made good technical points / provided substantive text / review / contributed to the discussion in a meaningful way suddenly say "I support this" is not just meaningless, it is actively harmful - who are they? what do they know? what does their opinion matter? why did someone feel it necessary to recruit them? This is true for a bunch of *known* people from the same company / group / organization / similar all suddenly arriving and supporting or objecting to a position without good (and distinct!) reasons. Over time people build up credibility - if Brian Carpenter (or Randy Bush or Russ Housley or John Scudder or ...) simply adds a "I support foo" (or "+1") message to a thread it *does* carry weight; their statement isn't made in a vacuum - I consider if they have demonstrated previous knowledge *in the topic*, if they have made useful contributions, etc. before deciding if their comment *means* anything, and what bias it carries. I can spend all day supporting <insert some topic here>, but unless I have *demonstrated* knowledge, skillset and a track record, my support isn't useful.. W > Brian > > > Moreover, this 'proof' can technically wait until the IETF last call or even until the IESG ballot. I see little point in postponing the closing of the WGLC and advancing the document (of course, the document shepherd will need to carefully write the section about the rough WG consensus). > > > > Finally, as far as I know, at the IETF we have no religion... else we would still be running NCP or IPv4 :-) > > > > -éric > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ipv6 <ipv6-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net> > > > > ...%<...%<.... > > > > It doesn't really matter how many people say +1 for moving it forwards > > -- if there are valid technical objections these have to be dealt with > > - and I think that the relationship with RFC8200 falling into this > > category... > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > > ipv6@ietf.org > > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > -- I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea in the first place. This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants. ---maf
- Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGL… Lizhenbin
- RE: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE:… Dongjie (Jimmy)
- RE: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE:… Huzhibo
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… xiechf@chinatelecom.cn
- RE: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE:… Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong)
- RE: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE:… Chengli (Cheng Li)
- Re: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move… liupengyjy@outlook.com
- RE: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE:… bruno.decraene
- Re: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE:… Fernando Gont
- RE: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE:… bruno.decraene
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Zafar Ali (zali)
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Dirk Steinberg
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Bob Hinden
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… John Leddy
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Warren Kumari
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Mike Simpson
- Re: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE:… 神明達哉
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… john leddy.net
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Fernando Gont
- Re: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE:… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Mark Smith
- RE: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Voyer, Daniel
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Bob Hinden
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Satoru Matsushima
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Eric Vyncke (evyncke)
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Gaurav Dawra
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Stefano Salsano
- RE: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Weiqiang Cheng
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… =?utf-8?B?WWlzb25nIExpdQ==?=
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Stefano Salsano
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move… li_zhenqiang@hotmail.com
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Bernier, Daniel
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Ahmed Bashandy
- RE: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move… Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Dirk Steinberg
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Mark Smith
- RE: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… bruno.decraene
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Fernando Gont
- RE: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE:… Maojianwei (Mao)
- Re: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE:… Ted Lemon
- RE: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE:… Andrew Alston
- Re: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE:… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Stefano Salsano
- RE: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… bruno.decraene
- RE: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE:… Xiejingrong (Jingrong)
- RE: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE:… Voyer, Daniel
- RE: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE:… Voyer, Daniel
- Re: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE:… Ted Lemon
- Re: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE:… Ted Lemon
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Stefano Salsano
- RE: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Alexander Vainshtein
- RE: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Andrew Alston
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE:… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… John Scudder
- Re: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE:… Stefano Salsano
- RE: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… James Guichard
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Warren Kumari
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Ted Lemon
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Ted Lemon
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Warren Kumari
- Re: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE:… 神明達哉
- Re: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE:… Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)
- Re: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE:… Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)
- Re: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE:… Ted Lemon
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)
- Re: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE:… Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)
- RE: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Ron Bonica
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Sander Steffann
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… 神明達哉
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Suresh Krishnan
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Mark Smith
- RE: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Ron Bonica
- Re: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE:… Darren Dukes (ddukes)
- RE: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Ron Bonica
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Keyur Patel
- Re: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE:… 神明達哉
- "penultimate segment" [Re: [spring] Request to cl… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE:… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: "penultimate segment" [Re: [spring] Request t… Stefano Salsano
- Re: "penultimate segment" [Re: [spring] Request t… Brian E Carpenter
- RE: "penultimate segment" [Re: [spring] Request t… Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)
- RE: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE:… Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)
- 答复: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE:… huruizhao
- Re: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE:… Tim Chown
- 答复: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Chenxia (D)
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Darren Dukes (ddukes)
- RE: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Alexander Vainshtein
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Brian E Carpenter
- RE: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Alexander Vainshtein
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Darren Dukes (ddukes)
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Alexander Vainshtein