Re: Question for IPv6 w.g. on [Re: IPv6 Type 0 Routing Header issues]
Theo de Raadt <deraadt@cvs.openbsd.org> Sat, 28 April 2007 12:24 UTC
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To: itojun@itojun.org
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 28 Apr 2007 12:07:48 +0900." <20070428030748.D37D71C069@coconut.itojun.org>
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 23:42:44 -0600
From: Theo de Raadt <deraadt@cvs.openbsd.org>
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Cc: ipv6@ietf.org, bob.hinden@nokia.com, tim@mentat.com, deraadt@openbsd.org
Subject: Re: Question for IPv6 w.g. on [Re: IPv6 Type 0 Routing Header issues]
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> I think we can safely > put to bed the idea that the designers were dolts who didn't learn from > history. That doesn't mean there weren't dolts involved in the > "process".:-) Bob, actually, why should we put anything to bed? Are you statements not some "put it to bed, shove it under the carpet" game? Really -- why not just call them stupid dolts? Why not hold them accountable? Is accountability suddenly un-American and un-IETF? The only people who I see discounting accountability (on various lists) are the ones who either don't understand the scope and impact of the problem, or are to escape the impact of the disaster that IETF has thrown at the IPV4 operators who now suddenly face this problem of IPV6-over-tunnels on the networks they operate. Talk to some operators. It's no longer DoS. You take your DoS, you IPV6 it, and voila -- it's DoS x 100, at least. You wait and see. So, why do we need to wipe the slate clean? Why not should we not identify the academics involved in IETF who are unaware of the pushback against source routing that happened in 1992-1995? If people are unaware if how IPV4 source routing was pushed back against, should they be at all involved in an any future IETF process that rubber stamps their kind of bullshit in a "New generation" protocol? If you don't blame the people who pushed for this crap, who will you blame? Noone? Or is the wiping clean of the slate just another retarded IETF process that will let this stupid mistake be made again, by an IETF that thinks that the "academic inclusion, uber ales, minus actual code in use" principle they believe in helps they build things better than crap? If I have come to one viewpoint in life it is this: IF NOONE LEARNS, NOONE LEARNS. And here I see Bob Hindin (and perhaps some others) making apologies for his buddies who he personally gave the scope to screw things up this badly. Bob, you were there. You are one of the dolts. If IETF has no accountability at present time, now is the time for accountability. You guys were given a *responsibility* to try to do right, hell -- the industry and goverments gave you a MANDATE. Instead you fucked the dog, and my lord, you fucked the dog to death, and potentially the cat and the canary too. Bob, I don't know who totally fucked this up; not exactly. But either the leaders of the process did, or... noone did. And I think we need to know who did fuck it up, so that they never let their stupid ideas of process enter into the Internet game again, or the researchers they listened to (who totally ignore an IETF directive of "security concerns must be addressed".) If you were unaware of the vendor and operator push-back against IPV4 source routing, and let this go through, then you are #1 retard of the century. If you did not, but simply managed researchers who sold you a bum ride -- you need to say who they were or you are an even bigger retard. Yes, I am mean. But Bob, I have dealt with you before and you should have gotten out of technology a long time ago. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPv6 working group mailing list ipv6@ietf.org Administrative Requests: https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 --------------------------------------------------------------------
- IPv6 Type 0 Routing Header issues Jeroen Massar
- Re: IPv6 Type 0 Routing Header issues Jari Arkko
- Re: IPv6 Type 0 Routing Header issues George V. Neville-Neil
- Re: IPv6 Type 0 Routing Header issues Mohacsi Janos
- Re: IPv6 Type 0 Routing Header issues David Malone
- Re: IPv6 Type 0 Routing Header issues Remi Denis-Courmont
- Re: IPv6 Type 0 Routing Header issues Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino
- Re: IPv6 Type 0 Routing Header issues Paul Vixie
- Re: IPv6 Type 0 Routing Header issues Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino
- Re: IPv6 Type 0 Routing Header issues Rob Austein
- Re: IPv6 Type 0 Routing Header issues Tim Enos
- Question for IPv6 w.g. on [Re: IPv6 Type 0 Routin… Bob Hinden
- Re: Question for IPv6 w.g. on [Re: IPv6 Type 0 Ro… Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino 2.0
- Re: Question for IPv6 w.g. on [Re: IPv6 Type 0 Ro… Perry Lorier
- Re: Question for IPv6 w.g. on [Re: IPv6 Type 0 Ro… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Question for IPv6 w.g. on [Re: IPv6 Type 0 Ro… David Malone
- Re: Question for IPv6 w.g. on [Re: IPv6 Type 0 Ro… David Malone
- Re: IPv6 Type 0 Routing Header issues Ed Jankiewicz
- Re: IPv6 Type 0 Routing Header issues Gert Doering
- Re: IPv6 Type 0 Routing Header issues Gert Doering
- RE: IPv6 Type 0 Routing Header issues Manfredi, Albert E
- RE: IPv6 Type 0 Routing Header issues Tony Hain
- RE: IPv6 Type 0 Routing Header issues Tony Hain
- RE: Question for IPv6 w.g. on [Re: IPv6 Type 0 Ro… Tony Hain
- Re: Question for IPv6 w.g. on [Re: IPv6 Type 0 Ro… james woodyatt
- Re: Question for IPv6 w.g. on [Re: IPv6 Type 0 Ro… james woodyatt
- Re: IPv6 Type 0 Routing Header issues George V. Neville-Neil
- Re: IPv6 Type 0 Routing Header issues Alun Evans
- Re: IPv6 Type 0 Routing Header issues Jeroen Massar
- Re: IPv6 Type 0 Routing Header issues David Malone
- Re: Question for IPv6 w.g. on [Re: IPv6 Type 0 Ro… Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino 2.0
- Re: IPv6 Type 0 Routing Header issues Ebalard, Arnaud
- Re: Question for IPv6 w.g. on [Re: IPv6 Type 0 Ro… Ignatios Souvatzis
- itojun2.0 (RE: IPv6 Type 0 Routing Header issues) Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino 2.0
- Re: itojun2.0 (RE: IPv6 Type 0 Routing Header iss… Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino 2.0
- Re: Question for IPv6 w.g. on [Re: IPv6 Type 0 Ro… Jari Arkko
- RE: IPv6 Type 0 Routing Header issues Manfredi, Albert E
- RE: IPv6 Type 0 Routing Header issues Tony Hain
- RE: Question for IPv6 w.g. on [Re: IPv6 Type 0 Ro… Dave Thaler
- Re: Question for IPv6 w.g. on [Re: IPv6 Type 0 Ro… Tim Hartrick
- Re: Question for IPv6 w.g. on [Re: IPv6 Type 0 Ro… Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino 2.0
- RE: IPv6 Type 0 Routing Header issues Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino 2.0
- Re: Question for IPv6 w.g. on [Re: IPv6 Type 0 Ro… Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino 2.0
- Re: Question for IPv6 w.g. on [Re: IPv6 Type 0 Ro… Theo de Raadt
- Re: Question for IPv6 w.g. on [Re: IPv6 Type 0 Ro… Bob Hinden
- RE: Question for IPv6 w.g. on [Re: IPv6 Type 0 Ro… Pekka Savola
- Re: Question for IPv6 w.g. on [Re: IPv6 Type 0 Ro… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Question for IPv6 w.g. on [Re: IPv6 Type 0 Ro… Pars Mutaf
- Re: Question for IPv6 w.g. on [Re: IPv6 Type 0 Ro… Theo de Raadt
- RE: Question for IPv6 w.g. on [Re: IPv6 Type 0 Ro… Dave Thaler
- RE: Question for IPv6 w.g. on [Re: IPv6 Type 0 Ro… Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino 2.0
- Re: Question for IPv6 w.g. on [Re: IPv6 Type 0 Ro… Eric Klein
- Re: IPv6 Type 0 Routing Header issues james woodyatt
- Re: Question for IPv6 w.g. on [Re: IPv6 Type 0 Ro… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Question for IPv6 w.g. on [Re: IPv6 Type 0 Ro… Roger Jorgensen
- Re: Question for IPv6 w.g. on [Re: IPv6 Type 0 Ro… Jeroen Massar
- Re: Question for IPv6 w.g. on [Re: IPv6 Type 0 Ro… Paul Vixie
- Re: Question for IPv6 w.g. on [Re: IPv6 Type 0 Ro… Eric Klein
- Re: IPv6 Type 0 Routing Header issues George V. Neville-Neil
- Re: IPv6 Type 0 Routing Header issues Ebalard, Arnaud
- Re: IPv6 Type 0 Routing Header issues gnn
- Re: IPv6 Type 0 Routing Header issues Mini
- Re: Question for IPv6 w.g. on [Re: IPv6 Type 0 Ro… Jeroen Massar
- Re: Question for IPv6 w.g. on [Re: IPv6 Type 0 Ro… Eric Klein
- Re: Question for IPv6 w.g. on Kenjiro Cho
- Re: itojun2.0 (RE: IPv6 Type 0 Routing Header iss… Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino 2.0
- Re: itojun2.0 (RE: IPv6 Type 0 Routing Header iss… Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino 2.0
- Re: IPv6 Type 0 Routing Header issues David Malone
- Re: IPv6 Type 0 Routing Header issues Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino 2.0