Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt
otroan@employees.org Tue, 28 March 2017 13:53 UTC
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Subject: Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 08:53:18 -0500
In-Reply-To: <1b6154d2-14a7-0d85-7a81-18a5367c0330@gmail.com>
Cc: 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>
To: Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>
References: <20170223134026.GI5069@gir.theapt.org> <CAN-Dau1vJV5O_Ythp6THkAu4-YZXV82Upny1V+ybbjCVZQQX=A@mail.gmail.com> <27cce319-18ac-5c0e-3497-af92344f0062@gmail.com> <de4988be-6031-08d9-84ce-21c3fa4f9bc9@gmail.com> <98401ef7-cf41-b4a0-4d11-a7d840181bd0@gmail.com> <1047f5fc-ae40-be52-6bab-27f31fe5e045@gmail.com> <9a94feac-8d59-b153-d41c-04fc371e4db4@gmail.com> <CAO42Z2z7v4gDk91b6Of-1sczV88m3B9kzn0MeJU_VBJ416k6Ww@mail.gmail.com> <ae35b45a-0398-840f-fc0d-1f64dd2fcc58@gmail.com> <CAJE_bqdZezDRti5LqCKnmU9QkwwhdejP22gXwk3wLKiS0mhx+Q@mail.gmail.com> <dfc8570d-fff0-39fe-a53f-db2c81c0ec8f@gmail.com> <CAJE_bqdHv0vw_kFFBZ2NE98t0nhkCR5rz8f=UOpwmvqtVjNqhg@mail.gmail.com> <d7c50847-47b4-48a7-d2c4-7b207898c84b@gmail.com> <CAJE_bqdzZ6VBCN_+FvX6Np=21PuuPCFX3mOuZ6MVQd=zj7aE5A@mail.gmail.com> <CAJE_bqfD_wkSgR1XBWSFXeVxZ+Qx+ai2qKoND89NW__m6yG2YQ@mail.gmail.com> <fd f728eb-90f5-facd-3cbe-5f3ba8cac0d1@gmail.com> <E162D74A-7A40-4266-921B-DA55998563BD@thehobsons.co.uk> <1b6154d2-14a7-0d85-7a81-18a5367c0330@gmail.com>
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Alexandre, I think we have spent enough time on this subject now. If you want to discuss this further I suggest you do that off-line. Best regards, Ole > On 28 Mar 2017, at 07:46, Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Le 28/03/2017 à 02:02, Simon Hobson a écrit : >> Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Actually one can wonder why RFC writers decided to write fe80::/10 >>> when they could have written fe81::/10 equaly well. Or even >>> fe90::/10 or febf::/10. All these designate the same 10bits - the >>> mask 1111 1110 10. >> >> I thought this was answered a good few messages ago. > > I did not see? > >> It is customary to always write the "lowest value that fits" > > I did not know it was customary? Maybe it should be documented. > > As opposed to IPv4 decimal notation, in IPv6 hexa it's very difficult to > compare visually two IPv6 addresses, and tell which is lower value. > >> - ie the one where all the non-prefix bits are zero. So fe80::/10 >> fits - all the bits after the first 10 are zero fe81::/10 does not >> fit - when you mask off the non-prefix bits you get a different >> value > > Well, makes sense. > > But from this to say that LL addresses are _only_ those that start with > fe80 there is a long way. > >> So while in terms of maths, after doing the masking you get the same >> result, by not applying the "all host bits are zero" rule - you have >> introduced confusion for humans. > > Ok. > > But humans introduce further confusion when mandating these host bits to > be 0. > > These bits are not necessarily 0 - they can be whatever. > > That is a need to say 'whatever' - not necessarily '0'. > >> As pointed out, 172.17.0.0/12 might make as much sense as >> 172.16.0.0/12 IFF you ignore this feature. Applying the mask to >> 172.17.0.0/12 gives you non-zero host bits - > > A-ha! I did not know that. > >> hence why we don't use that. It's all to do with consistency and >> avoidance of confusion. And we need as much of that as we can - I >> know plenty of supposedly network capable people who cannot >> understand the concept of 172.16.1.0/23 being a valid IP address ! > > But there should be a way to say that 172.16.0.0/12 is just one valid example, not the only one. > > That 172.17.0.0/12 is also a private address. > > Just like when one types 'ls abc*' vs typing 'ls abcd'. > > That is the need. > >> But to be frank, I still can't see what the proposal is about - just >> what use case does it solve ? > > Well, the discussion is issued from the following observations: > - rfc4291bis calls it fe80::/10 with a 64bit IID, whereas rfc2464bis > calls it fe80::/64 - which is right? > - BSD code recognizes an LL address by its 10 first bits only (not by > 64): it drops an ND message if not convinced. That is reason enough > to visit the problem closely. > - much f2f conversation calls ULA an "fd00" and an LL an "fe80". This > goes very far when assigning addresses on interfaces. Few if any > assign an "fe81" or an "fc00", although both are correct LL and ULA > respectively. > > And I think it is so because of the textual representation of IPv6 > addresses. > > Alex > >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list ipv6@ietf.org Administrative >> Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > --------------------------------------------------------------------
- Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Peter Hessler
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Job Snijders
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Peter Hessler
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Pierre Pfister
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Brian E Carpenter
- RE: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Manfredi, Albert E
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Mark Smith
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Iván Arce
- RE: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Manfredi, Albert E
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Job Snijders
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Mark Smith
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Nick Hilliard
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt james woodyatt
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Nick Hilliard
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt james woodyatt
- RE: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Manfredi, Albert E
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Nick Hilliard
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt james woodyatt
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Christopher Morrow
- RE: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt mohamed.boucadair
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Peter Hessler
- RE: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt mohamed.boucadair
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Sander Steffann
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Nick Hilliard
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Nick Hilliard
- RE: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt mohamed.boucadair
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Christopher Morrow
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt james woodyatt
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Christopher Morrow
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Pierre Pfister
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt David Farmer
- RE: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Manfredi, Albert E
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Christopher Morrow
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt David Farmer
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Christopher Morrow
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt David Farmer
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Fernando Gont
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt David Farmer
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Xing Li
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Xing Li
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Mark Smith
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Mark Smith
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Philip Homburg
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt David Farmer
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt james woodyatt
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt David Farmer
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Fernando Gont
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Greg Hankins
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt sthaug
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt sthaug
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Nick Hilliard
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Greg Hankins
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt sthaug
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt otroan
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt otroan
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Dan Lüdtke
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt sthaug
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt David Farmer
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt David Farmer
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Iván Arce
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Iván Arce
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.tx… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.tx… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Mark Smith
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Nick Hilliard
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Iván Arce
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Fernando Gont
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.tx… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.tx… Erik Kline
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.tx… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Fernando Gont
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Fernando Gont
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.tx… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Fernando Gont
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Fernando Gont
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Tore Anderson
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Iván Arce
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.tx… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Tore Anderson
- Consensus? (was Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-… Wilco Baan Hofman
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.tx… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.tx… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.tx… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.tx… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.tx… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Tore Anderson
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Sander Steffann
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Nick Hilliard
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Mark Andrews
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt 神明達哉
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.tx… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Job Snijders
- RE: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt mohamed.boucadair
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt otroan
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Ca By
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.tx… 神明達哉
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt 神明達哉
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.tx… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.tx… 神明達哉
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.tx… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.tx… Fred Baker
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.tx… Philip Homburg
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.tx… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.tx… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.tx… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.tx… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.tx… Christian Huitema
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt 神明達哉
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt 神明達哉
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt 神明達哉
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Simon Hobson
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Simon Hobson
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt otroan
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.tx… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.tx… otroan
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Alexandre Petrescu