RE: Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (OMNI)
"Templin (US), Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> Sat, 17 October 2020 20:58 UTC
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From: "Templin (US), Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>
To: Vasilenko Eduard <vasilenko.eduard@huawei.com>, Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>
CC: IPv6 List <ipv6@ietf.org>, "atn@ietf.org" <atn@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (OMNI)
Thread-Topic: Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (OMNI)
Thread-Index: Adakxz7YxD3hGdlTThaXSslc4Lj72w==
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2020 20:58:01 +0000
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Eduard, > -----Original Message----- > From: Vasilenko Eduard [mailto:vasilenko.eduard@huawei.com] > Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2020 1:21 PM > To: Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>; Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com> > Cc: IPv6 List <ipv6@ietf.org>; atn@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [atn] [EXTERNAL] Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (OMNI) > > Hi Fred, > I could not imagine how many governments would agree to share 1 block for specific purpose. > Additionally, different governments would have 1000x different scalability needs. The SLAs would be used within the scope of a *link*, and it is very likely that different organizations would maintain separate links. For example, ICAO would maintain a link for worldwide Air Traffic Management, but this would not overlap with the link maintained for a metropolitan area's ground transportation. Very similar to spatial reuse of IEEE 802.11 spectrum, it is not the case that defining a single spectrum (or a single IPv6 prefix) would require shared use by all parties in the world - to the contrary, each non-overlapping party would make their own use of the spectrum/prefix independently of all others. > I mean: it is not possible to just "request block for this purpose" upfront. > The architecture should be scalable to add blocks ad-hoc in the future. It is just like spatial reuse of wireless spectrum - you don’t add new spectrum every time someone wants to set up their own access point when there can be non-overlapping (re)use of a finite spectrum. Fred > Eduard > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ipv6 [mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Templin (US), Fred L > > Sent: 17 октября 2020 г. 20:01 > > To: Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com> > > Cc: IPv6 List <ipv6@ietf.org>; atn@ietf.org > > Subject: RE: [atn] [EXTERNAL] Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address > > (OMNI) > > > > Hi Bob, > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Bob Hinden [mailto:bob.hinden@gmail.com] > > > Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2020 9:47 AM > > > To: Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> > > > Cc: Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>; Manfredi (US), Albert E > > > <albert.e.manfredi@boeing.com>; IPv6 List <ipv6@ietf.org>; Ole Trøan > > > <otroan@employees.org>; atn@ietf.org > > > Subject: Re: [atn] [EXTERNAL] Embedding IP information in an IPv6 > > > address (OMNI) > > > > > > Fred, > > > > > > > On Oct 17, 2020, at 9:01 AM, Templin (US), Fred L > > <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > Bob, it looks like our notes crossed at approximately the same time, > > > > but I would say the same thing to you that I just said to Bert - we > > > > will want all four of LLAs (for the control plane), SLAs (for the OAL) and > > ULAs/GUAs (for end-system addressing). > > > > > > I think we are saying you are asking for too much. > > > > The ask is to bring SLAs off mothballs and back into service - it would be a good > > use of an otherwise wasted space. > > > > > > About your scale calculations, there will be far more terrestrial > > > > vehicles, urban air mobility vehicles, drones, pedestrians etc. than > > > > there are the number of aircraft currently worldwide. But, scale is > > > > just one dimension of the problem space and the more important dimension > > is *function*. > > > > > > Where is the problem statement for this? > > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking/ > > > > > This is far beyond what was I understood was called for in the OMNI > > > liaison letter (https://datatracker.ietf.org/liaison/1676/ ) that we > > > thought the OMNI draft was focused on. The liaison letter talks about aircraft, > > not vehicles, drones, pedestrians, etc. > > > > > > I read what you are saying is a mobility solution for everything. > > > > What we have been designing for the aircraft domain appears to be a good fit > > for other mobility domains as well, with the above draft as evidence. I believe > > we can satisfy the aircraft in the near term while still allowing for more general- > > purpose mobility applicability. > > > > Thanks - Fred > > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks - Fred > > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > > >> From: atn [mailto:atn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Bob Hinden > > > >> Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2020 8:52 AM > > > >> To: Manfredi (US), Albert E <albert.e.manfredi@boeing.com> > > > >> Cc: IPv6 List <ipv6@ietf.org>; Ole Trøan <otroan@employees.org>; > > > >> Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>; atn@ietf.org > > > >> Subject: Re: [atn] [EXTERNAL] Embedding IP information in an IPv6 > > > >> address (OMNI) > > > >> > > > >> Bert, > > > >> > > > >>> On Oct 16, 2020, at 2:47 PM, Manfredi (US), Albert E > > <albert.e.manfredi@boeing.com> wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>> From: ipv6 <ipv6-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Ole Troan > > > >>> > > > >>>> I would challenge you to make OMNI entirely free from semantic > > > >>>> addresses. That would also help the working group understand > > > >> what benefits semantic addresses bring to OMNI. And what the tradeoffs > > would be. > > > >>> > > > >>> I think it's a matter of speed and simplicity, no? You avoid that > > > >>> extra protocol, to assign addresses. Same idea as embedding the > > > MAC > > > >> into the IPv6 address. But it's true that the IETF likes to stay away from > > semantic addresses. > > > >>> > > > >>> The path of least resistance, from all the back and forth, as of > > > >>> now, seems to be to either use ULAs, or to request a new /10 for > > > this > > > >> new purpose. > > > >> > > > >> I did some searching, found that there are currently about 500K aircraft of > > all types (general aviation, commercial, military, etc.). > > > >> Allocating a /10 seems excessive to me for this even with a lot of growth. > > > >> > > > >> Using ULAs would be fine. This might even be a good justification to use > > the other half of the ULA space as I suspect the ICAO > > > could > > > >> be an allocation authority. > > > >> > > > >> Bob > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > > ipv6@ietf.org > > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > > --------------------------------------------------------------------
- Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (OMNI) Templin (US), Fred L
- RE: Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [atn] Embedding IP information in an IPv6 add… Robert Moskowitz
- Re: [atn] Embedding IP information in an IPv6 add… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [atn] Embedding IP information in an IPv6 add… Fred Baker
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: [atn] Embedding IP information… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: [atn] Embedding IP information… Mark Smith
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: [atn] Embedding IP information… Templin (US), Fred L
- RE: [atn] [EXTERNAL] Re: Embedding IP information… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: [atn] Embedding IP information… Mark Smith
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: [atn] Embedding IP information… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [atn] [EXTERNAL] Re: Embedding IP information… 神明達哉
- RE: [atn] [EXTERNAL] Re: Embedding IP information… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [atn] [EXTERNAL] Re: Embedding IP information… Bob Hinden
- Re: [atn] [EXTERNAL] Re: Embedding IP information… otroan
- RE: [atn] [EXTERNAL] Re: Embedding IP information… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: [atn] Embedding IP information… Fernando Gont
- Re: Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (… Fernando Gont
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Embedding IP information in an… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [atn] [EXTERNAL] Re: Embedding IP information… otroan
- RE: [atn] [EXTERNAL] Re: Embedding IP information… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [atn] [EXTERNAL] Re: Embedding IP information… 神明達哉
- Re: Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Embedding IP information in an… Philip Homburg
- Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Embedding IP information in an… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (… Templin (US), Fred L
- RE: [atn] [EXTERNAL] Re: Embedding IP information… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [atn] [EXTERNAL] Re: Embedding IP information… Philip Homburg
- RE: [atn] [EXTERNAL] Re: Embedding IP information… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [atn] [EXTERNAL] Re: Embedding IP information… otroan
- RE: [atn] [EXTERNAL] Re: Embedding IP information… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [atn] [EXTERNAL] Re: Embedding IP information… otroan
- Re: Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (… Bob Hinden
- Re: Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (… Bob Hinden
- Re: Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (… Bob Hinden
- Re: Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (… Bob Hinden
- Re: Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (… Templin (US), Fred L
- RE: Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (… Templin (US), Fred L
- RE: Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (… Bob Hinden
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Embedding IP information in an… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [EXTERNAL] Embedding IP information in an IPv… Bob Hinden
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Embedding IP information in an IPv… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [atn] [EXTERNAL] Re: Embedding IP information… Philip Homburg
- Re: Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (… Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (… Ted Hardie
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Embedding IP information in an… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Embedding IP information in an… Ole Troan
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Embedding IP information in an… Manfredi (US), Albert E
- Re: [EXTERNAL] Embedding IP information in an IPv… Bob Hinden
- Re: Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (… Templin (US), Fred L
- RE: [atn] [EXTERNAL] Embedding IP information in … Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [atn] [EXTERNAL] Embedding IP information in … Bob Hinden
- RE: [atn] [EXTERNAL] Embedding IP information in … Templin (US), Fred L
- RE: [atn] [EXTERNAL] Embedding IP information in … Vasilenko Eduard
- RE: Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [atn] [EXTERNAL] Embedding IP information in … Bob Hinden
- Re: Starlink --- "simpler than IPv6" Templin (US), Fred L
- RE: Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: Starlink --- "simpler than IPv6" Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: Starlink --- "simpler than IPv6" Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: Starlink --- "simpler than IPv6" Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: Starlink --- "simpler than IPv6" Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Starlink --- "simpler than IPv6" Alexandre Petrescu
- RE: Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (… Bob Hinden
- RE: Starlink --- "simpler than IPv6" Templin (US), Fred L
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Embedding IP information in an… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [atn] Embedding IP information in an IPv6 add… Michael Richardson
- RE: Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: Starlink --- "simpler than IPv6" Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: Starlink --- "simpler than IPv6" Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (… Philip Homburg
- Re: Starlink --- "simpler than IPv6" Alexandre Petrescu
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Starlink --- "simpler than IPv… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: Starlink --- "simpler than IPv6" Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: Starlink --- "simpler than IPv6" Bob Hinden
- Re: [atn] Embedding IP information in an IPv6 add… Bob Hinden
- Re: Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (… Michael Richardson
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: [atn] Embedding IP information… Templin (US), Fred L
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Embedding IP information in an… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Embedding IP information in an… Philip Homburg
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Embedding IP information in an… Templin (US), Fred L
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Embedding IP information in an… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: Starlink --- "simpler than IPv6" Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: Starlink --- "simpler than IPv6" Bob Hinden
- Re: Starlink --- "simpler than IPv6" Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Starlink --- "simpler than IPv6" Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Starlink --- "simpler than IPv6" Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Starlink --- "simpler than IPv6" Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Starlink --- "simpler than IPv6" Bob Hinden
- Re: [EXTERNAL] Embedding IP information in an IPv… Bob Hinden
- Re: Starlink --- "simpler than IPv6" Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: Starlink --- "simpler than IPv6" Bob Hinden
- Re: Starlink --- "simpler than IPv6" Alexandre Petrescu