RE: Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (OMNI)

"Templin (US), Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> Sat, 17 October 2020 20:58 UTC

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From: "Templin (US), Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>
To: Vasilenko Eduard <vasilenko.eduard@huawei.com>, Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>
CC: IPv6 List <ipv6@ietf.org>, "atn@ietf.org" <atn@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (OMNI)
Thread-Topic: Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (OMNI)
Thread-Index: Adakxz7YxD3hGdlTThaXSslc4Lj72w==
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2020 20:58:01 +0000
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Eduard,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Vasilenko Eduard [mailto:vasilenko.eduard@huawei.com]
> Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2020 1:21 PM
> To: Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>om>; Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>
> Cc: IPv6 List <ipv6@ietf.org>rg>; atn@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [atn] [EXTERNAL] Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (OMNI)
> 
> Hi Fred,
> I could not imagine how many governments would agree to share 1 block for specific purpose.
> Additionally, different governments would have 1000x different scalability needs.

The SLAs would be used within the scope of a *link*, and it is very likely that
different organizations would maintain separate links. For example, ICAO would
maintain a link for worldwide Air Traffic Management, but this would not overlap
with the link maintained for a metropolitan area's ground transportation. Very
similar to spatial reuse of IEEE 802.11 spectrum, it is not the case that defining a
single spectrum (or a single IPv6 prefix) would require shared use by all parties
in the world - to the contrary, each non-overlapping party would make their
own use of the spectrum/prefix independently of all others.

> I mean: it is not possible to just "request block for this purpose" upfront.
> The architecture should be scalable to add blocks ad-hoc in the future.

It is just like spatial reuse of wireless spectrum - you don’t add new spectrum
every time someone wants to set up their own access point when there can be
non-overlapping (re)use of a finite spectrum.

Fred

> Eduard
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ipv6 [mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Templin (US), Fred L
> > Sent: 17 октября 2020 г. 20:01
> > To: Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>
> > Cc: IPv6 List <ipv6@ietf.org>rg>; atn@ietf.org
> > Subject: RE: [atn] [EXTERNAL] Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address
> > (OMNI)
> >
> > Hi Bob,
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Bob Hinden [mailto:bob.hinden@gmail.com]
> > > Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2020 9:47 AM
> > > To: Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>
> > > Cc: Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>om>; Manfredi (US), Albert E
> > > <albert.e.manfredi@boeing.com>om>; IPv6 List <ipv6@ietf.org>rg>; Ole Trøan
> > > <otroan@employees.org>rg>; atn@ietf.org
> > > Subject: Re: [atn] [EXTERNAL] Embedding IP information in an IPv6
> > > address (OMNI)
> > >
> > > Fred,
> > >
> > > > On Oct 17, 2020, at 9:01 AM, Templin (US), Fred L
> > <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Bob, it looks like our notes crossed at approximately the same time,
> > > > but I would say the same thing to you that I just said to Bert - we
> > > > will want all four of LLAs (for the control plane), SLAs (for the OAL) and
> > ULAs/GUAs (for end-system addressing).
> > >
> > > I think we are saying you are asking for too much.
> >
> > The ask is to bring SLAs off mothballs and back into service - it would be a good
> > use of an otherwise wasted space.
> >
> > > > About your scale calculations, there will be far more terrestrial
> > > > vehicles, urban air mobility vehicles, drones, pedestrians etc. than
> > > > there are the number of aircraft currently worldwide. But, scale is
> > > > just one dimension of the problem space and the more important dimension
> > is *function*.
> > >
> > > Where is the problem statement for this?
> >
> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking/
> >
> > > This is far beyond what was I understood was called for in the OMNI
> > > liaison letter (https://datatracker.ietf.org/liaison/1676/ ) that we
> > > thought the OMNI draft was focused on.  The liaison letter talks about aircraft,
> > not vehicles, drones, pedestrians, etc.
> > >
> > > I read what you are saying is a mobility solution for everything.
> >
> > What we have been designing for the aircraft domain appears to be a good fit
> > for other mobility domains as well, with the above draft as evidence. I believe
> > we can satisfy the aircraft in the near term while still allowing for more general-
> > purpose mobility applicability.
> >
> > Thanks - Fred
> >
> > > Bob
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Thanks - Fred
> > > >
> > > >> -----Original Message-----
> > > >> From: atn [mailto:atn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Bob Hinden
> > > >> Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2020 8:52 AM
> > > >> To: Manfredi (US), Albert E <albert.e.manfredi@boeing.com>
> > > >> Cc: IPv6 List <ipv6@ietf.org>rg>; Ole Trøan <otroan@employees.org>rg>;
> > > >> Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>om>; atn@ietf.org
> > > >> Subject: Re: [atn] [EXTERNAL] Embedding IP information in an IPv6
> > > >> address (OMNI)
> > > >>
> > > >> Bert,
> > > >>
> > > >>> On Oct 16, 2020, at 2:47 PM, Manfredi (US), Albert E
> > <albert.e.manfredi@boeing.com> wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>> From: ipv6 <ipv6-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Ole Troan
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> I would challenge you to make OMNI entirely free from semantic
> > > >>>> addresses. That would also help the working group understand
> > > >> what benefits semantic addresses bring to OMNI. And what the tradeoffs
> > would be.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> I think it's a matter of speed and simplicity, no? You avoid that
> > > >>> extra protocol, to assign addresses. Same idea as embedding the
> > > MAC
> > > >> into the IPv6 address. But it's true that the IETF likes to stay away from
> > semantic addresses.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> The path of least resistance, from all the back and forth, as of
> > > >>> now, seems to be to either use ULAs, or to request a new /10 for
> > > this
> > > >> new purpose.
> > > >>
> > > >> I did some searching, found that there are currently about 500K aircraft of
> > all types (general aviation, commercial, military, etc.).
> > > >> Allocating a /10 seems excessive to me for this even with a lot of growth.
> > > >>
> > > >> Using ULAs would be fine.   This might even be a good justification to use
> > the other half of the ULA space as I suspect the ICAO
> > > could
> > > >> be an allocation authority.
> > > >>
> > > >> Bob
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> >
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