Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements?
Jen Linkova <furry13@gmail.com> Wed, 15 November 2017 04:24 UTC
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From: Jen Linkova <furry13@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 15:24:16 +1100
Message-ID: <CAFU7BAT=gu_GiGF+pvbYOf1O-2r=CXtVyWoPNy+PdNU2KD3QpQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements?
To: Erik Kline <ek@google.com>
Cc: Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>, 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>, Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org>
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On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 3:14 PM, Erik Kline <ek@google.com> wrote: > Actually, I think the think we should is add the following to the PvD info: > > [1] NAT64 prefix > [2] set of separate DNS64 servers, for clients who don't yet do > client-side DNS64 synthesis. I love that idea. Even better than RA/DHCP ;) > Unfortunately, it's too early to create a SHOULD/MUST that IPv6 hosts > support PvDs, but I think we'll just need to revisit that in the > future. Well, we are talking about hosts/applications which do not exist anyway. So basically if an application wants to know about NAT64 prefix and the presence of DNS64, we need to define a mechanism to provide that information. PvD sounds like a right place to do it. > > On 15 November 2017 at 03:05, Jen Linkova <furry13@gmail.com> wrote: >> On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 1:07 PM, Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org> wrote: >>> If I may try to suggest a solution based on what you are saying: >>> >>> - Remove (external) DNS64 from the solution >>> - Replace NAT64 prefix discovery with some sort of local configuration. e.g. put it in DHCP or RA >>> >>> Which has the implications that: >>> - host learns NAT64 prefix via RA/DHCP >>> - host is free to use whatever DNS recursive resolvers (instead of the must be local (and on correct interface where the NAT64 is) resolver >>> - host synthesises addresses itself. And does validation before synthesising (if that's required). >>> >>> Is this the solution you would be looking for? >>> >>> And yes, you need host changes. But we need that anyway. >> >> NAT64 is a band aid, a tactical solution to deal with IPv4-only hosst >> while we are waiting for them to die. Requiring *mandatory* changes on >> majority of devices which are working on NAT64 networks just fine >> currently to solve problems for those who either a) sign their zones >> but do not enable Ipv6 b)doing some smart things in their host >> resolvers looks like an overkill to me.. >> >> IMHO the optimal solution is: >> - the network SHOULD provide a host with NAT64 prefix information in >> RA (I do not believe that information needs to be duplicated in DHCP >> at all); >> - an application MAY use that information to do AAAA synthetics >> (validating resolvers SHOULD do that). >> - network still provides DNS64 servers to hosts so all unsophisticated >> hosts (majority of devices falls into that category) continue to use >> network-provided resolvers. >> >> >>> >>>> On 15 Nov 2017, at 08:06, Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> On 15 Nov 2017, at 3:40 am, Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 6:46 AM, Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org> wrote: >>>>> Is there any reason to run DNS64 at all these days? ipv4only.arpa can be a preconfigured >>>>> zone which allows CLAT to get its mapping. All the phones have CLAT support. >>>>> >>>>> That's an interesting idea. It would work in theory, but such a network would completely break devices that don't support 464xlat. That gives up one of the major advantages of NAT64/DNS64, which is that it's a 90% solution even just by itself - yes, IPv4-only applications and address literals exist, but most simple client/server applications Just Work behind it. >>>> >>>> And that 90% “solution” has lots of down sides. It basically requires EVERY DNS VALIDATOR ON >>>> THE PLANET TO SUPPORT DNS64 JUST IN CASE IT IS USED BEHIND A DNS64 SERVER. >>>> >>>> DNS64/NAT64 was presented as NOT REQUIRING node changes when first mooted. It keeps on >>>> requiring more and more highly invasive node changes to support. It was from the very beginning >>>> bad engineering. To get IPv4 as a service some node changes are required. Lets make sure they >>>> are MINIMAL ones. >>>> >>>> Just for the record DNSSEC validators need to send BOTH CD=0 and CD=1 queries to get answers >>>> though a upstream VALIDATING server which includes a VALIDATING DNS64 server as CD=0 and >>>> CD=1 address different DNSSEC threats. I tried very hard to point that out when RFC 6147 was >>>> being written but the working group decide that CD indicated whether the client was validating or >>>> not. There is NO SUCH INDICATION in a DNS message. >>>> >>>> If a query arrives at a vDNS64 device with the "Checking Disabled" >>>> (CD) bit set, it is an indication that the querying agent wants all >>>> the validation data so it can do checking itself. By local policy, >>>> vDNS64 could still validate, but it must return all data to the >>>> querying agent anyway. >>>> >>>> CD=0 queries causes the upstream validating servers to reject incoming spoofed answers >>>> or stale answers (this is a common operational problem). >>>> >>>> CD=1 queries allow the validation to succeed when the upstream validator has a bad trust >>>> anchor or a bad clock which is rejecting legitimate answers. >>>> >>>> A validating client can’t just send CD=1 queries as the upstream validator doesn’t kick in. >>>> The upstream validator can lock onto a stale answer source. It needs to send CD=0 queries >>>> on validation failure to force the upstream validator to try multiple sources. >>>> >>>> A validating client can’t just send CD=0. It needs to send CD=1 on SERVFAIL in case the >>>> upstream validator has a bad trust anchor (likely with the upcoming root KSK roll) or has >>>> a bad clock (these usually get fixed fast). >>>> >>>> Now to get a answer from a signed zone with servers with stale answers a validatiing DNS64 client >>>> needs to send: >>>> >>>> a) send CD=1 and validation failure send CD=0 then on AAAA validation failure send CD=1 and >>>> hope the TTL was not 0 and that is not cachable and there is no assurance that you won’t get >>>> a answer from a stale source. >>>> >>>> or >>>> >>>> b) send CD=0 and on validation failure of the AAAA send CD=1 and hope the TTL was not 0 as >>>> that is not cachable and there is no assurance that you won’t get a answer from a stale source. >>>> >>>> TTL=0 answers exist. >>>> >>>> Note none of this is documented in a RFC. You have to understand how both DNSSEC and DNS64 work to >>>> realise this. >>>> >>>> IPV4ONLY.ARPA is currently has a secure delegation which breaks prefix discover for DNS VALIDATORS. >>>> Note “ad” is set in the flags. Yes, I’ve submitted a errata. Yes, I’ve opened a ticket to get it fixed but >>>> based on past experience that could take months if it happens at all. You will note that the recursive >>>> server is running on the loopback interface so all DNS answers are being validated here. >>>> >>>> [rock:bind9/bin/named] marka% dig IPV4ONLY.ARPA >>>> ;; BADCOOKIE, retrying. >>>> >>>> ; <<>> DiG 9.12.0b2+hotspot+add-prefetch+marka <<>> IPV4ONLY.ARPA >>>> ;; global options: +cmd >>>> ;; Got answer: >>>> ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 8504 >>>> ;; flags: qr rd ra ad; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 2, AUTHORITY: 0, ADDITIONAL: 1 >>>> >>>> ;; OPT PSEUDOSECTION: >>>> ; EDNS: version: 0, flags:; udp: 4096 >>>> ; COOKIE: 7dbf8beb79be47a09eb5313d5a0b776f4fae3aa6931d9583 (good) >>>> ;; QUESTION SECTION: >>>> ;IPV4ONLY.ARPA. IN A >>>> >>>> ;; ANSWER SECTION: >>>> ipv4only.arpa. 26574 IN A 192.0.0.171 >>>> ipv4only.arpa. 26574 IN A 192.0.0.170 >>>> >>>> ;; Query time: 0 msec >>>> ;; SERVER: 127.0.0.1#53(127.0.0.1) >>>> ;; WHEN: Wed Nov 15 10:08:31 AEDT 2017 >>>> ;; MSG SIZE rcvd: 115 >>>> >>>> [rock:bind9/bin/named] marka% >>>> >>>>> It's not true that all phones have clat support. Notably, Apple not only does not support it but appears ideologically opposed to it on the grounds that it does not have a good exit strategy (because it makes it possible to run IPv4-only apps forever). >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Mark Andrews, ISC >>>> 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia >>>> PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org >>>> >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >>>> ipv6@ietf.org >>>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >>> ipv6@ietf.org >>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >> ipv6@ietf.org >> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry
- IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ca By
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Tim Chown
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ca By
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Rajiv Asati (rajiva)
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Tim Chown
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Philip Homburg
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Philip Homburg
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ca By
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ca By
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ca By
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Philip Homburg
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ca By
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Philip Homburg
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Philip Homburg
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Mark Andrews
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Philip Homburg
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Mark Andrews
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- IPv4 only apps [was: IPv6 only host NAT64 require… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv4 only apps [was: IPv6 only host NAT64 req… Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv4 only apps [was: IPv6 only host NAT64 req… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv4 only apps [was: IPv6 only host NAT64 req… Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Michael Richardson
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Philip Homburg
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Michael Richardson
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Mark Andrews
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ca By
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Jen Linkova
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Erik Kline
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Jen Linkova
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Mark Andrews
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- RE: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? mohamed.boucadair
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? james woodyatt
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? james woodyatt
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? james woodyatt
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ca By
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? james woodyatt
- RE: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? mohamed.boucadair
- RE: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? mohamed.boucadair
- PCP, and 6434bis (was Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 re… Tim Chown
- Re: PCP, and 6434bis (was Re: IPv6 only host NAT6… Ca By
- Re: PCP, and 6434bis (was Re: IPv6 only host NAT6… Tim Chown
- Re: PCP, and 6434bis (was Re: IPv6 only host NAT6… Ca By
- Re: PCP, and 6434bis (was Re: IPv6 only host NAT6… james woodyatt
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Michael Richardson
- Re: PCP, and 6434bis (was Re: IPv6 only host NAT6… Michael Richardson
- Re: PCP, and 6434bis (was Re: IPv6 only host NAT6… james woodyatt
- Re: PCP, and 6434bis (was Re: IPv6 only host NAT6… Mark Andrews
- RE: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? mohamed.boucadair
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Jen Linkova
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Fred Baker
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Fred Baker
- RE: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? mohamed.boucadair
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: PCP, and 6434bis (was Re: IPv6 only host NAT6… Tim Chown
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? james woodyatt
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Jen Linkova
- Re: PCP, and 6434bis (was Re: IPv6 only host NAT6… Fernando Gont
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Simon Hobson
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ca By
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Mark Andrews
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Mikael Abrahamsson
- RE: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? mohamed.boucadair
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- RE: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? mohamed.boucadair
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Mark Andrews
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- RE: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? mohamed.boucadair
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Michael Richardson
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- RE: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? mohamed.boucadair
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- RE: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Manfredi, Albert E
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Jen Linkova
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Jen Linkova
- RE: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Manfredi, Albert E
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Lee Howard
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Lee Howard
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Mark Andrews
- RE: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Masanobu Kawashima
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Jen Linkova
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ola Thoresen
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ca By
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter