RE: [v6ops] Re: Improving ND security
"Templin (US), Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> Mon, 03 August 2020 18:36 UTC
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From: "Templin (US), Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>
To: Vasilenko Eduard <vasilenko.eduard@huawei.com>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, Fernando Gont <fernando@gont.com.ar>
CC: 6man <ipv6@ietf.org>, v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [v6ops] Re: Improving ND security
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] Re: Improving ND security
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Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2020 18:36:15 +0000
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Hi Ed, > Hi Fred, > SEND assumes RSA "RSASSA-PKCS1-v1_5 algorithm and SHA-1 hash" that is good enough for majority of purposes. > Currently Elliptic-curve cryptography is more popular, but it is not mandatory - RSA is good enough. > > Teredo specification assumes that "authentication algorithm, shared with the server", "agreed-upon authentication algorithm". > Hence, it is not possible to tell exactly how secure it is. > But because by default "To maximize interoperability, this specification defines a default algorithm in which the authentication value is > computed according the HMAC specification [RFC2104] and the SHA1 function [FIPS-180]." > We could say that it is much weaker then SEND, because HMAC in principle is much weaker then open key cryptography (RSA). Thanks for this well-balanced note. If we consider just the cryptographic strength of the security algorithms, then I don't mind going with SEND even though it means also bringing along CGAs. I still have yet to understand how CGA is anything other than a useless bag of bits for the purposes of OMNI, but if we have to carry along CGAs we will. > And we are comparing orange to apple here, because > - SEND is used for neighbor authentication > - Teredo is the tunnel > They have different purpose in networking. The intention for OMNI is that the usage would be for one and the same purpose. So, we have a tradeoff between quick-and-dirty for RFC4380 vs thorough-and-detailed for SEND/CGA. Maybe Christian can tell us if quick-and-dirty is good enough - or maybe he already has?? Thanks - Fred > Eduard > -----Original Message----- > From: v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Templin (US), Fred L > Sent: 3 августа 2020 г. 20:20 > To: Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>; Fernando Gont <fernando@gont.com.ar> > Cc: 6man <ipv6@ietf.org>; v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org> > Subject: Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security > > Christian, > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Christian Huitema [mailto:huitema@huitema.net] > > Sent: Monday, August 03, 2020 10:02 AM > > To: Fernando Gont <fernando@gont.com.ar> > > Cc: Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>; Pascal Thubert > > (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com>; v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org>; 6man > > <ipv6@ietf.org> > > Subject: Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security > > > > This message was sent from outside of Boeing. Please do not click > > links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know that the content is safe. > > > > > On Aug 3, 2020, at 9:35 AM, Fernando Gont <fernando@gont.com.ar> wrote: > > > > > > On 3/8/20 11:22, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > > >> ... > > > > > > > > > > > >> But then, RFC4380 offers a “poor-man’s” alternative to SEND/CGA. It > > >> places a message authentication code in the encapsulation > > headers of IPv6 ND messages so that the messages can pass a rudimentary authentication check. > > > > > > You mean the Teredo spec? If so, I don't think it includes any sort of poor-man's SEND-CGA. > > > > Configuration mistakes were a big concern during the design of Teredo, > > and that's a reason why Teredo embeds continuity tests. But these tests will not resist an on-path attacker, let alone an on-link > attacker. > > > > What has been the experience with RFC4380 security in-the-wild? Is it considered "secure enough" out of the box? Or, if you had to > do it again would you incorporate something "more secure" like SEND/CGA? > > Thanks - Fred > > > > -- Christian Huitema > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
- I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 - additional… Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 - additi… Jen Linkova
- RE: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 - additi… Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 - additi… Jen Linkova
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … joel jaeggli
- RE: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 - additi… Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- RE: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … Ted Lemon
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … Bob Hinden
- Improving ND security Ted Lemon
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Improving ND security Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [EXTERNAL] Improving ND security Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … Tony Finch
- draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: Improving ND security Ted Lemon
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Improving ND security Templin (US), Fred L
- RE: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: [EXTERNAL] Improving ND security Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … Ted Lemon
- RE: Improving ND security Templin (US), Fred L
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Improving ND security Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Improving ND security Bjoern A. Zeeb
- RE: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Improving ND security Templin (US), Fred L
- RE: [v6ops] Improving ND security Templin (US), Fred L
- RE: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Improving ND security Fernando Gont
- RE: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Improving ND security Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … Owen DeLong
- Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Templin (US), Fred L
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Templin (US), Fred L
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Vasilenko Eduard
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Philip Homburg
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Fernando Gont
- RE: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Christian Huitema
- RE: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Templin (US), Fred L
- RE: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Vasilenko Eduard
- RE: [v6ops] Re: Improving ND security Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Fernando Gont
- RE: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … Michael Richardson
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … Michael Richardson
- Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf… Michael Richardson
- Re: [EXTERNAL] Improving ND security Michael Richardson
- RE: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … Vasilenko Eduard
- RE: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- RE: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … Mark Smith
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Improving ND security Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- RE: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Vasilenko Eduard
- RE: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Vasilenko Eduard
- RE: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- RE: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- RE: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Vasilenko Eduard
- RE: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Jen Linkova
- RE: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- RE: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- RE: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Jen Linkova
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Jen Linkova
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Philip Homburg
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Bob Hinden
- distributed vs centralized approaches to ND secur… Michael Richardson
- Re: distributed vs centralized approaches to ND s… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Jen Linkova
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Bob Hinden
- RE: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Jen Linkova
- RE: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Bob Hinden
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Michael Richardson
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Philip Homburg
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand … Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [EXTERNAL] [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : sa… Ted Lemon
- RE: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Ted Lemon
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand … Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [EXTERNAL] [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : sa… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Warren Kumari
- RE: [EXTERNAL] [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : sa… Templin (US), Fred L
- RE: [EXTERNAL] [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : sa… Manfredi (US), Albert E
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Fred Baker
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Ted Lemon
- RE: [EXTERNAL] [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : sa… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- RE: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Jen Linkova
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Philip Homburg
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Philip Homburg
- RE: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Gyan Mishra
- RE: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- RE: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Templin (US), Fred L
- RE: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Pascal Thubert (pthubert)