Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt
Job Snijders <job@ntt.net> Fri, 03 March 2017 10:28 UTC
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Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2017 17:27:34 +0700
From: Job Snijders <job@ntt.net>
To: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
Subject: Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt
Message-ID: <20170303102734.GW1024@Vurt.local>
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On Fri, Mar 03, 2017 at 01:49:48PM +0900, Lorenzo Colitti wrote: > On Fri, Mar 3, 2017 at 7:21 AM, Nick Hilliard <nick@foobar.org> wrote: > > > > Let me rephrase the question. I asked for use cases for longer-than-/64 > > > prefixes and listed the ones I have seen so far: > > > > > > * "I only need 3 addresses" (but not "I only need 3 addresses and > > > here's why I can't accept 2^64 instead of 3") > > > * ND exhaustion attacks > > > > > > Do you have additional use cases? "This is the way we've done it for 20 > > > years" is not a use case. > > > > Thank you for rephrasing the question in a neutral way. Here is my answer: > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/msg101724.html > > > > We will probably need to agree to disagree on it. > > > > Actually, I agree with the comment itself. What I would like you to do is > implement your comment. I think what I above call "use cases" is what your > linked email calls "field deployment issues". If so, then my question > becomes: can you provide concrete examples of said field deployment issues? > What can't you do if all your subnets are fixed to /64? > > If we don't have concrete examples, all we have is "some operators say > fixed /64 is bad". But we don't know why they say it's bad, and how bad it > is, or even how many of those operators say it's bad. If nobody disagreed > with the staetments being made by the operators on this thread, that would > be fine. But because there *is* disagreement, then reaching consensus > requires finding a balance between what those operators say is best and > what others in this thread (mostly host developers) say is best. That > requires concrete examples, so that we can all look at the engineering > tradeoffs together. > > I'm going to ask again: what's the harm if all your IID lengths are /64 or > /127? What can't you do? (Other than use IPv6-translatable addresses, which > we should have an exception for.) You're free not to answer that question > at all, or to answer it with more general statements around operator > feedback being important to standards development, as you have so far, but > if you don't answer it with specific examples, I don't expect that you'll > be able to convince the other side of the debate any more than you have so > far. I am surprised you say stuff like "If we don't have concrete examples" - i shared actual data with the group. Is there a communication breakdown? /127 doesnt work with all equipment, /64 might leave one or both parties open to nd cache attacks, /126 works most of the time (hence 52% of NTTs interfaces are configured with /126), /124 or /120 is useful when you have more than two bgp speakers in a single layer-2 segment, etc. You've argued that you can mitigate nd cache issues, by applying non-trivial mechanisms, some of which are more theoretical then practical. Operators have chosen to entirely eliminate any risk of cache exhaustion issues by making linknets smaller. If I have a hammer, a nail, and a piece of wood; why would I use QoS or routing tricks? What I would've expected from IETF crowd is appreciation for continuing to deploy IPv6 in face of all the troubles we've seen over the years, instead we're being told "U R NUMBERING WRONG!!" and see absolute dismissal for current operational practices and recognition why the state of affairs is what it is. It is upsetting that this information needs to be repeated over and over again. Why are you not listening? The last decennia has already proven that flexibility is a necessity to operate the networks. The dogs bark, but the caravan goes on. Regards, Job
- Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Peter Hessler
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Job Snijders
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Peter Hessler
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Pierre Pfister
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Brian E Carpenter
- RE: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Manfredi, Albert E
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Mark Smith
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Iván Arce
- RE: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Manfredi, Albert E
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Job Snijders
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Mark Smith
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Nick Hilliard
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt james woodyatt
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Nick Hilliard
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt james woodyatt
- RE: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Manfredi, Albert E
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Nick Hilliard
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt james woodyatt
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Christopher Morrow
- RE: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt mohamed.boucadair
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Peter Hessler
- RE: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt mohamed.boucadair
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Sander Steffann
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Nick Hilliard
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Nick Hilliard
- RE: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt mohamed.boucadair
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Christopher Morrow
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt james woodyatt
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Christopher Morrow
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Pierre Pfister
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt David Farmer
- RE: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Manfredi, Albert E
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Christopher Morrow
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt David Farmer
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Christopher Morrow
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt David Farmer
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Fernando Gont
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt David Farmer
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Xing Li
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Xing Li
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Mark Smith
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Mark Smith
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Philip Homburg
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt David Farmer
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt james woodyatt
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt David Farmer
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Fernando Gont
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Greg Hankins
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt sthaug
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt sthaug
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Nick Hilliard
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Greg Hankins
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt sthaug
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt otroan
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt otroan
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Dan Lüdtke
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt sthaug
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt David Farmer
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt David Farmer
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Iván Arce
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Iván Arce
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.tx… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.tx… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Mark Smith
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Nick Hilliard
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Iván Arce
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Fernando Gont
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.tx… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.tx… Erik Kline
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.tx… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Fernando Gont
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Fernando Gont
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.tx… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Fernando Gont
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Fernando Gont
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Tore Anderson
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Iván Arce
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.tx… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Tore Anderson
- Consensus? (was Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-… Wilco Baan Hofman
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.tx… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.tx… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.tx… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.tx… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.tx… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Tore Anderson
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Sander Steffann
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Nick Hilliard
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Mark Andrews
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt 神明達哉
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.tx… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Job Snijders
- RE: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt mohamed.boucadair
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt otroan
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Ca By
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.tx… 神明達哉
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt 神明達哉
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.tx… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.tx… 神明達哉
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.tx… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.tx… Fred Baker
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.tx… Philip Homburg
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.tx… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.tx… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.tx… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.tx… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.tx… Christian Huitema
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt 神明達哉
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt 神明達哉
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt 神明達哉
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Simon Hobson
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Simon Hobson
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt otroan
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.tx… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.tx… otroan
- Re: Objection to draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt Alexandre Petrescu