Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people come from?

"Darren Dukes (ddukes)" <ddukes@cisco.com> Sat, 30 May 2020 18:08 UTC

Return-Path: <ddukes@cisco.com>
X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAC053A0958 for <ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sat, 30 May 2020 11:08:40 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -9.597
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.597 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com header.b=lEaH9SXN; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.onmicrosoft.com header.b=zTAjF8Ro
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3U89rxUhlLn5 for <ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sat, 30 May 2020 11:08:38 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com [173.37.86.72]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7EED43A0952 for <6man@ietf.org>; Sat, 30 May 2020 11:08:38 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=11858; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1590862118; x=1592071718; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=2YBMPpMKb1svhAGYXvZdtvQGiSd+SJM90laJd0yBo7U=; b=lEaH9SXNLvZiazdMhaU7k4zFwzxLXnrSyaHMBJ4V5QTGpNIPP4j9uazD 5zA2x9/s1aAWuOFo3YXIAPvani2hgJZjlICPEu0SsUcUrFg5yjx7B4q+R cSdKkGiCN3HdrRP1+2wiJdQ/wYHFrcyySWaeRVeqJPeDb3JcQ+KlkJWQ+ M=;
IronPort-PHdr: =?us-ascii?q?9a23=3A+ttZTh2Asix325H8smDT+zVfbzU7u7jyIg8e44?= =?us-ascii?q?YmjLQLaKm44pD+JxWGuadiiVbIWcPQ7PcXw+bVsqW1X2sG7N7BtX0Za5VDWl?= =?us-ascii?q?cDjtlehA0vBsOJSCiZZP7nZiA3BoJOAVli+XzoPk1cGcK4bFrX8TW+6DcIEU?= =?us-ascii?q?D5Mgx4bu3+Bo/ViZGx0Oa/s53eaglFnnyze7R3eR63tg7W8MIRhNhv?=
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0C0AABAoNJe/40NJK1mGgEBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEDAQEBARIBAQEBAgIBAQEBQIFKgSEvUgdvWC8sh2sDjUSJfYlohGeBQoE?= =?us-ascii?q?QA1ULAQEBDAEBGAEMCAIEAQGERAKCIgIkOBMCAwEBCwEBBQEBAQIBBgRthVk?= =?us-ascii?q?MhXIBAQEBAQEBAQEQGxMBASYDAwUGAQQLAgEIEQQBAQEuIQYLHQgCBAENBQg?= =?us-ascii?q?NDYMFgX5NAw4gAQ6kVwKBOYhhdIE0gwEBAQWBNgUKAjsEAYMTDQuCDgMGgTi?= =?us-ascii?q?CZIlUDxqBQT+BVIIfLj6CHkkBAQEBgSUJARIBIwwfgxqCLY5NHTOJASWaREw?= =?us-ascii?q?KgleUEIIGgneCZo4WjRyQX4xEjTWEAQIEAgQFAg4BAQWBaiJmcHAVO4JpUBc?= =?us-ascii?q?CDVePaYNyhFk7hUJ0AgE0AgYIAQEDCXyMSwEB?=
X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.73,452,1583193600"; d="scan'208,217";a="766689871"
Received: from alln-core-8.cisco.com ([173.36.13.141]) by rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 30 May 2020 18:08:37 +0000
Received: from XCH-RCD-003.cisco.com (xch-rcd-003.cisco.com [173.37.102.13]) by alln-core-8.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 04UI8bXl029041 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 30 May 2020 18:08:37 GMT
Received: from xhs-aln-002.cisco.com (173.37.135.119) by XCH-RCD-003.cisco.com (173.37.102.13) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.2; Sat, 30 May 2020 13:08:37 -0500
Received: from xhs-aln-002.cisco.com (173.37.135.119) by xhs-aln-002.cisco.com (173.37.135.119) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.2; Sat, 30 May 2020 13:08:36 -0500
Received: from NAM12-DM6-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (173.37.151.57) by xhs-aln-002.cisco.com (173.37.135.119) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.2 via Frontend Transport; Sat, 30 May 2020 13:08:36 -0500
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=IGC8UmAx/VHBgBQDOUf9bvcKP+5EppTHESxylZ81ll6idZ1anwFEoy78wZG/H00Ti6SW44MSz0mH4CgV/+yYhHaEKww4byt7nG/hTvaYuwqV8M0G4rneB00xl4oIC6Nv9gZYfmsnIsWa2XLw2CRAmcjvlADUFlzB4DqfYlJgGaGq4vY5VLtO8bf9t6EJqX4jqZrvyG8VQEuYHaSLel7mpLZNwnynathyFiC8OFwpqYPQwGBimLVZvscvJKpDKHVCO4rW1borCpI5RyIc3Bvf+qsO5YiVLNk/9nCg9Y/YVhxlaOJ/fcqORQw+LuMpdc23evcVIyIuuUkizaJ4iYcYPg==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=I+5QvxO9T94TAeNEUviFa8LXA4WfSyOMy9rJpcMZLmA=; b=AHCupS/HvKBiDd3Ckn5oA/Mm7xQxbUZMl2YBdsDtTAfQWpaEB/Fb58PLVJyfDyN1BSLXIUTolTEgvi7LADcOIvpW7MBOXKdVY2O8OsuIEC2DTXqGCGu6JTFum0ZW7lu0g6kargvhHfEcmEpVdRgcLY2VQgUBBXdAgn3GARvg56lEkKELcllWt7gCmjy+x9EHmWSj4a+Ob9Rf+yBaLMqJCwVeleqU/3AXEVXnLwViaU01ENFJmN13CDLF2vn1gTgZZg040MiJMfh/XzAC12VKOAEsH/j2i6rk6gxg17+20Z8tKYQZlnHCIt1R18ZSBtOjyYqymBYyUWkhNMuLetk4jg==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=cisco.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=cisco.com; dkim=pass header.d=cisco.com; arc=none
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cisco.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector2-cisco-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=I+5QvxO9T94TAeNEUviFa8LXA4WfSyOMy9rJpcMZLmA=; b=zTAjF8RoxGjs2kiXor7woUzp5E19BBglcXeMWJ/x7HmS3ReFNNiCw7njBelZdJh5+FSROhG7xoBEh39saaajoPv9qjushtn+w4XEPo2pSz1AOm+viEMQzxlUAXFK4M3zyPwSNnkgPvcztatMAuV9mQFtBDDGrAp0eoGS7/6e2aw=
Received: from BN6PR11MB4081.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:405:78::38) by BN6PR11MB1412.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:404:48::17) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3045.19; Sat, 30 May 2020 18:08:35 +0000
Received: from BN6PR11MB4081.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::c8dc:287c:17c2:28a7]) by BN6PR11MB4081.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::c8dc:287c:17c2:28a7%6]) with mapi id 15.20.3045.018; Sat, 30 May 2020 18:08:35 +0000
From: "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" <ddukes@cisco.com>
To: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
CC: 6MAN <6man@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people come from?
Thread-Topic: So where have all these new 6man WG people come from?
Thread-Index: AQHWNPns4SR2GoqyikqG5AlmyzCwQai9jQsAgAAATCCAAZ6pgIAAw5cAgABvG4CAADeEgIAAVVBF
Date: Sat, 30 May 2020 18:08:35 +0000
Message-ID: <BN6PR11MB4081E81A86F9ED901E2D8C42C88C0@BN6PR11MB4081.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
References: <8A5DB52F-5355-484D-8E70-02247C2DF88E@bell.ca> <4FE8C14C-421D-45D5-A1DE-D48E66AAC652@bell.ca> <VI1PR03MB5056782F1E77C7B5D22A8B9FEE8E0@VI1PR03MB5056.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com> <419F9DFA-DB3E-476A-BE21-715BD014F51D@puck.nether.net> <CAO42Z2wpD-NHg5mqUQEPbFTybmYz-Fc_ioUTEhsHZyssqkyk3w@mail.gmail.com> <CAOj+MMHHhm2q7_5vxP4=gXJxYUmv4My3AKpkrK10fj8203mRQQ@mail.gmail.com>, <CAO42Z2yxPvG6R_e3LUV1FkxPthgrAQ=Hq4f82k==o=TLXhZi5g@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <CAO42Z2yxPvG6R_e3LUV1FkxPthgrAQ=Hq4f82k==o=TLXhZi5g@mail.gmail.com>
Accept-Language: en-US
Content-Language: en-CA
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
authentication-results: gmail.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;gmail.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cisco.com;
x-originating-ip: [2607:f2c0:e4b8:d01:d0c9:bda8:771b:11eb]
x-ms-publictraffictype: Email
x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: cd71fdbe-1c39-489c-2882-08d804c47876
x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BN6PR11MB1412:
x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: <BN6PR11MB1412392749EA874148D561AEC88C0@BN6PR11MB1412.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:6430;
x-forefront-prvs: 041963B986
x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1
x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0;
x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 3lU4X4iFRwQeMkwFO1bSXYed2fDN+l4GFQMJYFSjuxekhzEb5V8RtFwBJv3OFAqrGa1EyK/jd6+8RXNw+1bl0w1GFhTTnUlEEMzVi9cnM/zUra6GZ9bNl/5b2c9vbxnkxzwmrk3qRg+JlGNGFWpTIjQfZ2p7VkeCQH2f1RKWOnrrVgPNTM+zr4uXwJUGfksJf9urzGdwRfw1bdePycRuHlXksq4++/7rJdqAxGOOtsOfW2P3Fh/gMMbNtTKjsL5cPow7b5WflB01nHBF+VA5VdnBrulBIRi4SHnKpToP6LDOeJgPI9OzOgix+wtrb43/Fu8mHygJ3lY2pSgkkObWI+ZLaz0eDjFVZNsVnFaN337S5tqs8xQMPzYb4a9IxUJGRhXq4K1dYwnX+6MFdYRkag==
x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:BN6PR11MB4081.namprd11.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFTY:; SFS:(4636009)(376002)(366004)(346002)(396003)(136003)(39860400002)(5660300002)(66574014)(7696005)(4326008)(6506007)(66446008)(66556008)(966005)(66946007)(66476007)(76116006)(316002)(91956017)(64756008)(478600001)(53546011)(2906002)(186003)(52536014)(8936002)(86362001)(83380400001)(71200400001)(8676002)(166002)(9686003)(33656002)(110136005)(55016002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101;
x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: 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
x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_BN6PR11MB4081E81A86F9ED901E2D8C42C88C0BN6PR11MB4081namp_"
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: cd71fdbe-1c39-489c-2882-08d804c47876
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 30 May 2020 18:08:35.3206 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: bqiwh0sDob/KeCqTiqzlRHGyVMootdOM/imM96sj7e93cgkYHtETFm5WGkskZxBun3gqF6lma1tDVn3fG/M76Q==
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN6PR11MB1412
X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com
X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.13, xch-rcd-003.cisco.com
X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-8.cisco.com
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/_EP4iWfKW9uGn9Y1Ia-8UzQwrqU>
X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" <ipv6.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ipv6>, <mailto:ipv6-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/>
List-Post: <mailto:ipv6@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ipv6-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6>, <mailto:ipv6-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 30 May 2020 18:08:41 -0000

Mark I think you’ve inadvertently described an old boys club in 6man.  After meeting you in person in Singapore, I can say with some certainty that was not your intent.

Let’s end this thread and welcome the diversity and new ideas that new posters to the list can bring. We need not agree with everything we read on the list but it is better than silence.

To those new posters to 6man, keep it up!  The ietf needs the diversity of experience culture and thought that you bring.

https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc7704.html#section-2.1

Sincerely
  Darren
________________________________
From: ipv6 <ipv6-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2020 8:46 AM
To: Robert Raszuk
Cc: 6MAN
Subject: Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people come from?

On Sat, 30 May 2020 at 19:26, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:
>
> HI Mark,
>
> So what is your recommendation ?
>
> What should make an individual eligible by your standards to express an opinion on adoption or last call of any proposal in 6man or any WG?
>

Since this is a group that does work ("working group"), I think it is
fair to expect some evidence of contribution to the work the group
does, such as active involvement in previous working group mailing
list discussions, authored or co-authored Internet Drafts relevant to
the working group's purpose, or mentions in working group relevant ID
acknowledgement sections indicating off-line communication and
contribution with the author(s) regarding the ID.

It doesn't seem fair to me that people who haven't contributed work to
the group get a say in what work the group does or does not do.

Regards,
Mark.












> If someone is following SPRING and 6MAN just by reading list archives and he sees an adoption call - by your standards he can not one time voice his opinion ? Very interesting ...
>
> In fact 6man is open also for non subscribers making it very welcoming to anyone to send an email even without joining the WG list.
>
> Sure - in the past I personally experienced folks from a vendor subscribing and voting with an artificial name yet silly enough to use their company internal mailer domain - pretending he is an operator, but those would be rather ugly exceptions then a rule.
>
> Thx a lot,
> R.
>
>
> On Sat, May 30, 2020 at 4:48 AM Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Do you think somebody who spent many hours of their own time preparing
>> and presenting this at the AusNOG 2015 conference wants to discourage
>> IETF participation, unless it is trying to influence group consensus
>> via membership stacking and using ring-ins (Australian for non-genuine
>> members)?
>>
>> "Why you should read RFCs and Internet Drafts (and what you need to
>> know to do so)"
>> https://www.ausnog.net/sites/default/files/ausnog-2015/presentations/1.4_Mark_Smith_AusNOG2015.pdf
>>
>> On Sat, 30 May 2020 at 01:08, Jared Mauch <jared@puck.nether.net> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > > On May 28, 2020, at 10:25 AM, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > Am questioning if we are seeing a growth in participation – or a blatant stacking of the floor with people who have never set foot on the lists and will never will again.
>> > >
>> >
>> > (No hat)
>> >
>> > I’m concerned about how welcoming this might be to new participants who perhaps have a legitimate problem to be solved that they discover in the operations of a network.  This above text doesn’t reflect a welcoming environment, nor one where perhaps someone has something valuable to contribute in a single area of expertise of operations.
>> >
>> > I’m going to bookmark this thread for a reminder next time someone asks me about if the IETF is welcoming to newcomers.
>> >
>> > - Jared
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
>> ipv6@ietf.org
>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------
IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
ipv6@ietf.org
Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
--------------------------------------------------------------------