Re: What 's the process?
Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com> Thu, 20 February 2020 20:02 UTC
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From: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2020 12:01:34 -0800
Message-ID: <CA+wi2hPyTLs4VEK7rsRWiFW2UztyrTt66K0OQrg5u=jpn8Q6vA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: What 's the process?
To: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>
Cc: "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" <ddukes@cisco.com>, Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>, Ron Bonica <rbonica=40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>, 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>
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Amen to Andrew's email as to technical terms ... As "procedural objections" side-swipe: IETF is (still?) rough consensus, running code & ideally deployment rather than ceremony and process lawyering ... And yes, ideally not breaking standards published v6 drafts and hi-jacking address semantics because they're "just bits" ... I guess in shorter terms +1 for adoption here --- tony On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 6:20 PM Andrew Alston < Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com> wrote: > Darren, > > > > I’ve given a lot of thought to what I’m going to say next – and the fact > that a lot of it is repetition of what I have said over, and over, and over > again – much of which you have chosen to never respond to. In that vein – > I am going to take this in point form, and I encourage you to go back > through the emails I have sent over the last year or more for expansion on > each of these points, in a similar way to how people need to read RFC’s > before questioning their content. > > > > Let us start with – what is the use case – > > > > 1. We need to be able to steer traffic > 1. In a way that is compatible with inter-domain traffic steering > (this works with CRH, we’ve proved it: > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/KeWOkXeN9JPv8acD1oC99qjdsxU > 2. We need ways to steer traffic that allow us to do this with very > deep stack depth – going as deep as 10 or 12 SID’s – without the vast > traffic overhead that would exist in the case of SRv6 – while at the same > time maintaining the ability to track the packet through the header (which > is accomplished through the immutable nature of the header) > 3. We need to be able to cross segments of the network that have no > support for SR-MPLS in the context of IPv6 – and this is particularly > important considering statements from certain vendors that they have no > plans or desires to implement SR-MPLS as concerns IPv6 – despite supporting > it for IPv4. > > > > Now, with that said – > > > > 1. We do not need, want, or require > 1. Overly complex programmability – some may – that is simply not > something we see a need for today – I don’t begrudge those that do need it > or wish to implement it > 2. Anything that results in what I have heard as described as > routing by NAT in order to reduce the header size. > 3. To violate rfc8200 through either the insertion or deletion of > headers in flight > 4. To inflate the size of the IGP by separating our loopbacks and > our SID’s > 5. To run into problems as concerns RFC7112 when the SID depth > becomes deep enough > 6. To utilize any protocol that fundamentally redefines the > semantics of an IPv6 address with all the unintended consequences this may > entail > > > > Next – let me address another point. You constantly question the use > case. Let me state this, what is a use case. It is that which an > operator, or group of operators utilize a technology for, that they find > beneficial and that enhances their network. It is that simple. In the > context of the requirements above, we strongly feel that other proposals > out there do not meet our needs, in any way shape or form. We do however > know for a fact that what is defined in the CRH draft – does – it works – > its deployed – it exists – and it meets a need. Now, just as I said we > have no requirement of all the items in B, you may not see a requirement in > your context for what we need out of CRH – that does not make our use case > any less valid, it simply makes it irrelevant to what you believe is > required by yourself, in the same way that what you have defined has no > relevance of our network today. That is not a bad thing – but – different > things work for different networks in different environments. > > > > Speaking for myself, I have no desire to see SRv6, the network programming > draft or the rest stopped or work to cease on them. I acknowledge that > some people may have a requirement for things in those documents, however, > those documents do not come CLOSE to addressing that which is required on > our network, and instead, violate several key principles by which we > operate, including the introduction of technologies which in our view are > overly complex, excessively difficult to debug, risk redefinition of > already existent standards without knowledge of the unintended > consequences, and so the list continues. CRH in and of itself is a new > routing header – it meets a requirement that we have, and if we saw that > requirement as a result of the studying of other documents and upon the > realization that those documents did not meet that requirement at all, is > irrelevant. > > > > What I have not seen over the last while however, is you disputing the > technical feasibility of the document. Your arguments are pretty > consistent regarding what you believe is about use case – except, when > myself, and others, have clearly stated that we have a use case for > something else, and indeed with the amount of time spent developing both > the documents and the code, this argument is clearly contra-indicated > through both these statements and that work. Interestingly enough, it is > also contra-indicated through the introduction of the micro-sid draft, > because the moment you published that – which came after the initial > publication of the CRH document, you acknowledged the need for header > compression, and you acknowledged through the very existence of that > document that there is a fundamental requirement to reduce the header size > imposed. If you dispute that, then I cannot understand why said draft > exists. > > > > Now, if you wish me to go and write yet another rfc draft to define why we > need this – and in the absence of any such documents describing the use > cases for various other documents, I will do so, however, I do not wish to > waste the time of people to deal with yet another draft when the on these > lists, and at the microphone, time and again, these things have already > been clearly articulated, and ignored. > > > > So let me be clear – SRv6 does not have a place on our network – it does > not meet our requirements – it will never meet our requirements – it has no > use case within our domain – CRH on the other hand – does meet our > requirements, it has a use case, and it works. And while for another > operator, the inverse may be true, and for some, they may see benefit in > running BOTH technologies, that does not negate either of the > technologies. > > > > Thanks > > > > Andrew > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- >
- What 's the process? Chengli (Cheng Li)
- RE: What 's the process? Ron Bonica
- Re: What 's the process? Darren Dukes (ddukes)
- RE: What 's the process? Ron Bonica
- RE: What 's the process? Ron Bonica
- RE: What 's the process? James Guichard
- RE: What 's the process? Ron Bonica
- RE: What 's the process? Andrew Alston
- Re: What 's the process? John Scudder
- Re: What 's the process? Darren Dukes (ddukes)
- RE: What 's the process? Ron Bonica
- Re: What 's the process? Tony Przygienda