Re: [EXT] Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc2460bis-08.txt> (Internet Protocol, Version 6 (IPv6) Specification) to Internet Standard
Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> Tue, 14 February 2017 23:34 UTC
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Subject: Re: [EXT] Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc2460bis-08.txt> (Internet Protocol, Version 6 (IPv6) Specification) to Internet Standard
To: David Mozes <davidm@mellanox.com>, Tal Mizrahi <talmi@marvell.com>, Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>
References: <67ab3d39d55840c8a207e2104e6020cd@IL-EXCH01.marvell.com> <CAO42Z2zcc-wCtdbs4VFSu-yWUT0u2PX8r+wpe3Jsj-4vVZUwwg@mail.gmail.com> <eeaa0cc49e104cc68c5b2ae23c44e355@IL-EXCH01.marvell.com> <HE1PR0501MB21381B97CAB3707DB7D20F31B6580@HE1PR0501MB2138.eurprd05.prod.outlook.com>
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Organization: University of Auckland
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Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2017 12:34:52 +1300
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David, Tal, Note that if a HbH option is tagged "1 - Option Data may change en-route" it is excluded from AH anyway. But if you insert an option, or extend its length while modifying it, you will break all forms of PMTUD. Regards Brian On 15/02/2017 03:27, David Mozes wrote: > Hi * , > I am also supporting the insertion of in-band telemetry like INT along with the actual data packet . > It is for sure a valid use case for the modern networking including data center. > There are several proposals how to embedded telemetry information some of them are with in nvo3 tannling protocols > (Vxlan-GPE,Geneve) Spring and other . > I think that ipv6 hbh is the "cleanest" way to add such info. > 1) I don't see any and advantages on the other proposals (NVO3 ,SPRING) over IPV6 hbh. > 2))As far as security In the IPsec community, AH is pretty much considered deprecated, a failed experiment.They are prefer to use ESP for authentication as well. > > The postal system and the letter is very nice e example . I will treat the adding ipv6-hbh info as stamps on the envelops ,since we are not touching the data gram itself just the envelope > > Thx > David > -----Original Message----- > From: ipv6 [mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tal Mizrahi > Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 3:37 PM > To: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com> > Cc: draft-ietf-6man-rfc2460bis@tools.ietf.org; 6man@ietf.org; IETF Discussion list <ietf@ietf.org>; 6man-chairs@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [EXT] Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc2460bis-08.txt> (Internet Protocol, Version 6 (IPv6) Specification) to Internet Standard > > Hi Mark, > > I certainly agree that hop-by-hop insertion/modification introduces potential security vulnerabilities. > Therefore, as I pointed out below, I would recommend to tackle this by defining something along the lines of “Hop-by-hop extensions can be inserted/removed/modified/processed by intermediate nodes *if* [……..] and the possible consequences are [……..]” > > For example, hop-by-hop handling can be restricted only to a single administrative domain, or only to tunnels (as in the zero checksum case). > > Regards, > Tal. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Mark Smith [mailto:markzzzsmith@gmail.com] >> Sent: Monday, February 13, 2017 6:07 PM >> To: Tal Mizrahi >> Cc: 6man@ietf.org; IETF Discussion list; draft-ietf-6man- >> rfc2460bis@tools.ietf.org; 6man-chairs@ietf.org >> Subject: [EXT] Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc2460bis-08.txt> >> (Internet Protocol, Version 6 (IPv6) Specification) to Internet >> Standard >> >> External Email >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Hi, >> >> >> >> On 14 February 2017 at 00:43, Tal Mizrahi <talmi@marvell.com> wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> >>> >>> Good discussion regarding the text about the hop-by-hop extension. >>> >>> >>> >>> In my opinion there is a valid use case for intermediate nodes that >>> insert/remove/modify/process hop-by-hop extensions. Examples: IOAM, INT. >>> >>> Since there is a use case, I believe we need explicit text about >>> intermediate handling of hop-by-hop extensions. >>> >> >> >> Imagine you sent a letter through the postal system, and the postal >> system wanted to add information to that letter, that is then to be >> removed before the letter arrives at its final destination. >> >> The postal system have at least two choices as to how to add that information. >> They could: >> >> (a) unstick your envelope's seal, insert the information, reseal the >> envelope so well you can't tell and send it on its way, some how >> flagging to a destination device within the postal system that this >> specific envelop needs to be openned, a specific page removed, and then resealed. >> >> (b) take a new envelope with new internal postal system source and >> destination address information, insert your letter without touching it >> in addition to the new information, and then sending it on its way. >> >> Imagine that the information to be added by the postal system is >> printed on the same type of paper and is written in the same font as >> you've chosen to use to write your letter. >> >> Have a think about these two methods, what could fail with each of >> them, and what the consequences may be if any of those failures occur. >> Have a think of the benefits of each method, and whether they're worth >> it compared to the failure mode costs and consequences for the method. >> >>> >>> >>> This [somewhat] reminds me of the discussion a few years ago about >>> the IPv6/UDP zero checksum. The WG ended up defining that “Zero >>> checksum is permitted in IPv6/UDP *if* [……..] and the possible consequences are [……..]”. >>> >>> >> >> That is a far more trivial change to the packet - it is allowing a >> value in an existing field that was formerly prohibited, and nodes that >> did not understand that value would drop the packet because that is >> what they had been specified to do if they received this prohibited value. In other words, existing implementations ' >> behaviour when this formerly unexpected value was encountered had >> already been specified and deployed. >> >> >>> >>> I would argue that regarding hop-by-hop extension handling we also >>> need to define that “Hop-by-hop extensions can be >>> inserted/removed/modified/processed by intermediate nodes *if* [……..] >>> and the possible consequences are [……..]”. >>> >> >> Some things that are possible to do in theory shouldn't be done in >> practice, because the consequences when their implementations fail can >> be severe and outweigh the benefits. >> >> In theory, inserted EHs will be removed 100% of the time. In practice >> they won't be, because implementations can have bugs and they can also >> fail in unexpected ways e.g., hardware faults. >> >> Regards, >> Mark. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- >
- Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc2460bis-08.txt> (I… The IESG
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc2460bis-08.txt… Fernando Gont
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc2460bis-08.txt… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc2460bis-08.txt… Brian E Carpenter
- RE: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc2460bis-08.txt… Manfredi, Albert E
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc2460bis-08.txt… Stefano Previdi (sprevidi)
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc2460bis-08.txt… C. M. Heard
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc2460bis-08.txt… 神明達哉
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc2460bis-08.txt… Fernando Gont
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc2460bis-08.txt… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc2460bis-08.txt… Suresh Krishnan
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc2460bis-08.txt… Pete Resnick
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc2460bis-08.txt… Enno Rey
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc2460bis-08.txt… otroan
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc2460bis-08.txt… Fernando Gont
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc2460bis-08.txt… otroan
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc2460bis-08.txt… Fernando Gont
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc2460bis-08.txt… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc2460bis-08.txt… Fernando Gont
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc2460bis-08.txt… otroan
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc2460bis-08.txt… Fernando Gont
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc2460bis-08.txt… Philip Homburg
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc2460bis-08.txt… 神明達哉
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc2460bis-08.txt… Randy Bush
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc2460bis-08.txt… Ted Lemon
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc2460bis-08.txt… Randy Bush
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc2460bis-08.txt… Scott Bradner
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc2460bis-08.txt… Suresh Krishnan
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc2460bis-08.txt… Eric Vyncke (evyncke)
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc2460bis-08.txt… Leddy, John
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc2460bis-08.txt… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc2460bis-08.txt… Mark Smith
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc2460bis-08.txt… Tal Mizrahi
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc2460bis-08.txt… Mark Smith
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc2460bis-08.txt… t.petch
- RE: [EXT] Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc2460… Tal Mizrahi
- RE: [EXT] Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc2460… David Mozes
- Re: [EXT] Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc2460… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [EXT] Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc2460… Mark Smith
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc2460bis-08.txt… Fernando Gont
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc2460bis-08.txt… Fernando Gont
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc2460bis-08.txt… Fernando Gont
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc2460bis-08.txt… Sander Steffann
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc2460bis-08.txt… Fernando Gont
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc2460bis-08.txt… Sander Steffann
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc2460bis-08.txt… Fernando Gont
- Address types [was: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-r… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc2460bis-08.txt… Erik Kline