Re: [atn] [EXTERNAL] Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (OMNI)

Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com> Sat, 17 October 2020 16:47 UTC

Return-Path: <bob.hinden@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 656213A109B; Sat, 17 Oct 2020 09:47:35 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.098
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ek7AgQQIP8Yg; Sat, 17 Oct 2020 09:47:33 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-wm1-x32a.google.com (mail-wm1-x32a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::32a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 92F6D3A109A; Sat, 17 Oct 2020 09:47:33 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-wm1-x32a.google.com with SMTP id e23so6375490wme.2; Sat, 17 Oct 2020 09:47:33 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=5CKNmsJ4TzXu85yCFWudPRr+jIAeaRHnj1JzyPxk8wg=; b=BYzc7DeDeqfavJIlIdCU00f/yDbhbVpNmqm9jtBsG8n+Nd2gcKI8ZZjyjgqKAwZTCs FNBVRl/HtbCFHgo4tPCYq4ExEmlyGDA3KLS7DXvVS16i2wJpK9XFuOk6Hp5RCamEP6vq 7JuUk6K2eD6RwT5LNz9Ol0PcJmcjZd4iIY7TMT0nqboeraVbOIi7Kjm5Rk8MTaxOEZ0a y4/YePphMH5QnPxzfERbCipkuGfc31uRkibVUvzzqU5eBfM071Xf1NNVCAxAYsrzNeJN Sm7JymttGqFdWHsw5lGAj/FwYlOUxN5wdMi1sy3R+LJcp0zYFNvqcj2e2WSeL0mM1ot9 Qmmg==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=5CKNmsJ4TzXu85yCFWudPRr+jIAeaRHnj1JzyPxk8wg=; b=nZjCxoQeG+ABah2au1V4Vuh6ijOv2JGLBukf30x5KZiLHAo7MN3C6EK3OMGHkRguCu +bPIw22sJB6x41RyLG+qnqgBKQgyXEWCqZoXtW4FchQ6ZZkfuFfp/NvJeqUzJCQ+vArH Q30OLRvKEnfwH0QVmIgZgWmfYh9/PdcPFvJ2f8Yk6/nY2Tw2nCYgg0XEUz6GL9T7dc/v ElD6UCUwNP+MCGRD3noijqg0U7BNd1lEXjnFCH40g17zgzETtgi9yk53updwz/saQOJ1 kHFDYSVEYbSUbnmsjbFpCeWRjMX0/rsxVuMQlrQdVBVnP8Htwg4FMTsBPxB0Q8FKqhxO wTpQ==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530AdlVYwqqqXFAHJudA82VubV3uFMfCu3C+RunUS2YFnlpmgOb5 l6pICkGisyQ9JhHJXMpPg8U=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyH8WyBEeeQ3oxHpzZT1U3dgdBuzLGUPNAsDPdO9O9k7jiCaP02OaTeGVKDUAX73eXtg5HgOg==
X-Received: by 2002:a7b:c0c8:: with SMTP id s8mr8967482wmh.78.1602953251978; Sat, 17 Oct 2020 09:47:31 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ?IPv6:2601:647:5a00:ef0b:8c25:bc1:6706:fa4a? ([2601:647:5a00:ef0b:8c25:bc1:6706:fa4a]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u5sm10039026wru.63.2020.10.17.09.47.30 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 17 Oct 2020 09:47:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>
Message-Id: <43BBB7E0-3E55-4F6A-A49B-54AB0BB760FA@gmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_7780C1B9-FD4D-4D92-9FB5-77D380CFC91F"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.17\))
Subject: Re: [atn] [EXTERNAL] Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (OMNI)
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2020 09:47:25 -0700
In-Reply-To: <49d4846dc5cf43e8921fe02d63810437@boeing.com>
Cc: Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>, "Manfredi (US), Albert E" <albert.e.manfredi@boeing.com>, IPv6 List <ipv6@ietf.org>, =?utf-8?Q?Ole_Tr=C3=B8an?= <otroan@employees.org>, "atn@ietf.org" <atn@ietf.org>
To: "Templin (US), Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>
References: <81c2b0adda744231ae790408dcb594a2@boeing.com> <C38A7B84-6451-42C3-925D-09BEDBA319AD@employees.org> <053deb1bf9c149df98ad3e75d60bfe93@boeing.com> <312E6A75-75D7-409D-85FB-6ACCBA2474F3@gmail.com> <49d4846dc5cf43e8921fe02d63810437@boeing.com>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.17)
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/kl-uTogYNASzPFKOH8hcXGNG6qY>
X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" <ipv6.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ipv6>, <mailto:ipv6-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/>
List-Post: <mailto:ipv6@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ipv6-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6>, <mailto:ipv6-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2020 16:47:36 -0000

Fred,

> On Oct 17, 2020, at 9:01 AM, Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> wrote:
> 
> Bob, it looks like our notes crossed at approximately the same time, but I would say
> the same thing to you that I just said to Bert - we will want all four of LLAs (for the
> control plane), SLAs (for the OAL) and ULAs/GUAs (for end-system addressing).

I think we are saying you are asking for too much.

> 
> About your scale calculations, there will be far more terrestrial vehicles, urban
> air mobility vehicles, drones, pedestrians etc. than there are the number of
> aircraft currently worldwide. But, scale is just one dimension of the problem
> space and the more important dimension is *function*.

Where is the problem statement for this?  This is far beyond what was I understood was called for in the OMNI liaison letter (https://datatracker.ietf.org/liaison/1676/ ) that we thought the OMNI draft was focused on.  The liaison letter talks about aircraft, not vehicles, drones, pedestrians, etc.

I read what you are saying is a mobility solution for everything.

Bob


> 
> Thanks - Fred
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: atn [mailto:atn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Bob Hinden
>> Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2020 8:52 AM
>> To: Manfredi (US), Albert E <albert.e.manfredi@boeing.com>
>> Cc: IPv6 List <ipv6@ietf.org>rg>; Ole Trøan <otroan@employees.org>rg>; Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>om>; atn@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [atn] [EXTERNAL] Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (OMNI)
>> 
>> Bert,
>> 
>>> On Oct 16, 2020, at 2:47 PM, Manfredi (US), Albert E <albert.e.manfredi@boeing.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> From: ipv6 <ipv6-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Ole Troan
>>> 
>>>> I would challenge you to make OMNI entirely free from semantic addresses. That would also help the working group understand
>> what benefits semantic addresses bring to OMNI. And what the tradeoffs would be.
>>> 
>>> I think it's a matter of speed and simplicity, no? You avoid that extra protocol, to assign addresses. Same idea as embedding the MAC
>> into the IPv6 address. But it's true that the IETF likes to stay away from semantic addresses.
>>> 
>>> The path of least resistance, from all the back and forth, as of now, seems to be to either use ULAs, or to request a new /10 for this
>> new purpose.
>> 
>> I did some searching, found that there are currently about 500K aircraft of all types (general aviation, commercial, military, etc.).
>> Allocating a /10 seems excessive to me for this even with a lot of growth.
>> 
>> Using ULAs would be fine.   This might even be a good justification to use the other half of the ULA space as I suspect the ICAO could
>> be an allocation authority.
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>> 
>