Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people come from?
Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> Fri, 29 May 2020 18:42 UTC
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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 29 May 2020 11:41:54 -0700
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Subject: Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people come from?
To: "Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)" <wim.henderickx@nokia.com>
Cc: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>, "Templin (US), Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, 6MAN <6man@ietf.org>
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Hi Wim, I would probably be troubled if IETF will start "choosing a champion" in the technology field (not that I haven't noticed that being tried). I think I'm more comfortable with "There're many ways to slice a bread" view and IETF ensuring that it can be done in an interoperable way without breaking other things around. Regards, Greg On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 9:42 PM Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) < wim.henderickx@nokia.com> wrote: > On top it would be a good signal from IETF to state this as it will help > you get support for some vendors who don’t want to implement things. Trying > to come up with a new protocol for the fact a vendor doesn’t support > something I not good if there is a solution available. As such I believe it > would be good that IETF brings this signal and does not adopt CRH for such > scenario. > > > > My 2 cents. > > > > *From: *"Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)" <wim.henderickx@nokia.com> > *Date: *Friday, 29 May 2020 at 06:33 > *To: *Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>, "Templin (US), > Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>, Brian E Carpenter < > brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, 6MAN <6man@ietf.org> > *Subject: *Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people come from? > > > > Andrew, RFC8663 would do the job in the same way. On top you also will > need to interwork with MPLS, so you have to do all kinds of mapping and > encap with CRH to interwork with CRH. RFC8663 is a much better alternative > for such environment > > > > *From: *ipv6 <ipv6-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Andrew Alston < > Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com> > *Date: *Friday, 29 May 2020 at 02:41 > *To: *"Templin (US), Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>, Brian E > Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, 6MAN <6man@ietf.org> > *Subject: *Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people come from? > > > > I want to add another use case to this, and it’s pretty critical to some > of my thinking > > > > Imagine this scenario – > > > > P -> PE <ASBR> -> Metro > > > > In the metro – you have a bunch of metro aggregation nodes – imagine them > connected something like: > > > > A B C D > > | | | | > > E F G H > > > > (I’ve included a png in case the formatting of this gets messed up) > > > > Now – say hypothetically there are rings of building handoffs that start > and stop at separate metro nodes – so a ring that goes from D through H – > say 10 devicse deep. Those devices are: > > > > 1. Relatively low end devices – but have sufficient forwarding > capacity to carry traffic between the metro nodes > 2. Support MPLS on V4 – do not support it on V6 (and never will, since > there is on LDPv6 on those devices, and well, LDPv6 was pretty much still > born anyway imho) > > > > Now lets say I get a dual break – C to D and D to H – the only > communication path left – as the path of last resort is one of the metro > rings D through H – and yes – that’s a last resort – you don’t wanna be > routing through those rings unless you truly have to – but – it is a path > of last resort. > > > > In an MPLS world – V4 MPLS traffic will keep flowing – via the rings – > using the last resort path. In a V6 world – I have a problem. In an V4 > MPLS world – despite the fact that I do not have support SR-MPLS – I have > SRMS which will allow me to actually run effective SR through the ring. > There is no SRMS that I know of for V6 – or if there is – it’s certainly > never been implemented by any vendor I have ever seen. I could static > backup tunnels over the metro rings and shove my v6 traffic over those – > except – that means retaining V4 on the rings. Alternatively – I could go > either SRv6 (and I’ve stated many times why that doesn’t work for me in any > way shape or form) or – I can use CRH – because the intermediary devices do > not have to know anything about it. > > > > Bottom line – for those who wish to say “Qu'ils mangent de la MPLS” – > guess what – this doesn’t work for us in this scenario. CRH does. I point > out that replacing the thousands upon thousands of devices in the metro > rings – also makes no logical sense whatsoever. > > > > So basically – there are cases where – I need to be able to run > functionality over islands – I need to be able to do it without V6 MPLS > support – and I need those devices to be able to pass the stuff > transparently. I do not wish to be creating static tunnels – I do not to > break loose based steering because it has to flow through the path of last > resort – and I have zero interest in running SRv6. CRH – works in this > scenario – it’s been tested – extensively. > > > > Thanks > > > > Andrew > > > > > > > > *From: *ipv6 <ipv6-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "Templin (US), Fred L" < > Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> > *Date: *Friday, 29 May 2020 at 00:03 > *To: *Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, 6MAN <6man@ietf.org > > > *Subject: *RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people come from? > > > > Brian, please don't delete the message about a concrete use for CRH in > real-world > applications (planes, trains automobiles) with backing documentation: > > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/g43uTZFNVyLV3y-kvrDn8Qktk1Y/ > > Thanks - Fred > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ipv6 [mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brian E Carpenter > > Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2020 1:40 PM > > To: 6MAN <6man@ietf.org> > > Subject: Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people come from? > > > > I have concluded two things. > > > > 1. Most people have completely failed to understand the meaning of > "adoption" in the IETF WG context. I and at least one co-author > > will be submitting a draft about that to the gendispatch WG soon. > > > > 2. When I hear a choir singing, it is the same as hearing one voice. > > > > My personal decision at this point is to delete all messages about CRH > adoption unread, except for the message we will soon receive > > from the WG Chairs stating the rough consensus of the adoption call, > which ends on 2020-05-29. I do feel sympathy for the Chairs who > > must read and evaluate everything. > > > > Regards > > Brian Carpenter > > > > On 28-May-20 23:23, Mark Smith wrote: > > > I've been an active participant in the ipng, 6man and v6ops IETF > working groups since 2002. > > > > > > While I've only been to one IETF meeting in person since then (106, > sponsored by the Internet Society), over that time I've come to > > recognise the names of many of the regular and active participants in > these IPv6 working groups. > > > > > > I do not recognise many of the names of people who are objecting to > the 6man working group adopting the CRH draft. > > > > > > Those who have been active 6man participants in recent years would > know that even an ID adopted by 6man, written by Bob and > > Brian, that had a number of revisions, didn't survive WG last call, and > that occurred while Bob was (as he still is) one of the 6man WG > > chairs. > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > Mark. > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > > > ipv6@ietf.org > > > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > > ipv6@ietf.org > > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- >
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Philip Homburg
- So where have all these new 6man WG people come f… Mark Smith
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Andrew Alston
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… tom petch
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Voyer, Daniel
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… otroan
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Alexandre Petrescu
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Templin (US), Fred L
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Voyer, Daniel
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Templin (US), Fred L
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Bernier, Daniel
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Andrew Alston
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Nick Hilliard
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Xing Li
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Sander Steffann
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… otroan
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Adrian Farrel
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… 神明達哉
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Voyer, Daniel
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Ron Bonica
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Fernando Gont
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Turchanyi Geza
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Greg Mirsky
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Brian E Carpenter
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Andrew Alston
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)
- Need a journalist (Re: So where have all these ne… Carsten Bormann
- Re: Need a journalist (Re: So where have all thes… Ca By
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Andrew Alston
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Robert Raszuk
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Andrew Alston
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Robert Raszuk
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Andrew Alston
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Robert Raszuk
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Stewart Bryant
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Ron Bonica
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Stewart Bryant
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Fred Baker
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Voyer, Daniel
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Ted Lemon
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Jared Mauch
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Ron Bonica
- One size fits all !?! (was: Re: So where have all… Toerless Eckert
- RE: One size fits all !?! (was: Re: So where have… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Greg Mirsky
- Re: One size fits all !?! (was: Re: So where have… Toerless Eckert
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Greg Mirsky
- RE: One size fits all !?! (was: Re: So where have… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Mark Smith
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Robert Raszuk
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Mark Smith
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Robert Raszuk
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Darren Dukes (ddukes)
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Ole Troan
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Stewart Bryant
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Stewart Bryant
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Carsten Bormann
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Toerless Eckert
- Re: One size fits all !?! (was: Re: So where have… Philip Homburg
- RE: One size fits all !?! (was: Re: So where have… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: One size fits all !?! (was: Re: So where have… John Scudder
- RE: One size fits all !?! (was: Re: So where have… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: One size fits all !?! (was: Re: So where have… Philip Homburg