Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt> (IP Version 6 Addressing Architecture) to Internet Standard
Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> Wed, 22 February 2017 10:43 UTC
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Subject: Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt> (IP Version 6 Addressing Architecture) to Internet Standard
To: Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org>
References: <05FD5283-9A15-4819-8362-5E6B2416D617@employees.org> <CAKD1Yr3B+dw83B0+26oUqdVJE==wHUBwoWzfWBJep8f+=uM8xQ@mail.gmail.com> <d9dc153a-61a8-5976-7697-ce1ecc9c8f3f@gmail.com> <4AF83EE6-6109-491F-BE66-114724BB197B@employees.org> <75196cfa-5476-0c7b-7612-ea2e446fc6f1@gmail.com> <B4A4FFFD-A90D-4C26-BDBD-75555840CA22@employees.org> <m2wpcqeuot.wl-randy@psg.com> <44F7BEDA-CF11-4E1E-BA6F-88794DEC1AF7@employees.org> <20170221001940.GB84656@Vurt.local> <068ce975-8b1e-a7c5-abba-2bfc1d904d70@gmail.com> <20170221101339.GC84656@Vurt.local> <CAKD1Yr33oQb=gMGaEM++hLgmMtxMdihiDrUihEsjs63vy8qRbA@mail.gmail.com> <54c81141-e4f5-4436-9479-9c02be6c09bb@Spark> <CAKD1Yr28iQHt0iuLvR3ndrT3Hfct=4k9dxjJeu3MAjDjOogEvA@mail.gmail.com> <3af95cc0-d336-f0be-bd42-aeb2319452ad@gmail.com> <20170222101532.C7BDC64529C3@rock.dv.isc.org>
From: Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>
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Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2017 11:43:25 +0100
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Le 22/02/2017 à 11:15, Mark Andrews a écrit : > > In message <3af95cc0-d336-f0be-bd42-aeb2319452ad@gmail.com>, > Alexandre Petrescu writes: >> >> >> Le 22/02/2017 =E0 04:00, Lorenzo Colitti a =E9crit : >>> On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 10:50 AM, Job Snijders <job@ntt.net >>> <mailto:job@ntt.net>> wrote: >>> >>> Those "thousands of interconnections" facilitate the >>> communication between millions of those hosts. >>> >>> >>> But the configuration cost and management overhead is not >>> proportional to the hosts that are served by those >>> interconnections, it is proportional to the number of >>> interconnections. A 10x100G peering interconnection that serves X >>> million hosts is one interface that has to be managed. >>> >>> Have you considered that not all interconnections are equal? The >>> type of interconnection I am mainly (but not exclusively) >>> referring to is the interconnection between Autonomous Systems to >>> facilitate the exchange of routing information using BGP-4. >>> Autoconfiguration plays no role here, everything is configured >>> explicitly. I'd argue that the use case is hardly comparable with >>> a residential or mobile connection. >>> >>> >>> Those use cases are very well served by /127 for PNIs and /64s >>> for Internet exchanges. What's left? >>> >>> As pointed out in this thread, real networks use all kinds of >>> prefix lengths. Also, one doesn't renumber everything every time >>> a new document comes out - you stick to things that work for >>> you. >>> >>> >>> As discussed above, most links use /64. >>> >>> Some vendors in this thread have admitted to strive to make >>> things work with any prefix length, why is there then still a >>> discussion that people must use /64 - when both vendors and users >>> are not always doing so, for good reasons? >>> >>> >>> You're forgetting about host operating system developers and host >>> users, >> >> I think you talk about users of hosts like smartphones, situated at >> the edge of the Internet, not in the core. >> >> In straightforward IP addressing architectures ("hierarchical"), >> the prefixes of routes towards the edges are naturally shorter than >> that 64: e.g. prefix /60 for site, /63 for building, /64 for office >> desk. > > In a straight forward addressing architecture a site gets a /48 and > sub entities request the numbers of /64's they need Yes, that is when human planners make an architecture for a stable situation, for a longer term like 10 years. > and it uses a autoconfiguring routing protocol for routing traffic. Except that edge computers caring about SLAAC/Ethernet/64 dont typically run routing protocols, and even less autoconfiguring routing protocols. > Homes and most sites don't need heirachical routing. 65000 routing > entries should be able to be handled even by a $15 router. Households: yes a 15eur a router can handle many routes; but househodls get one /64 from ISP, others get 16 such /64s, but no more. However, the more IoT devices arrive the more subnets are needed in a house network. That will challenge the initial thoughts of the address planners, again. The /64 limit has become very popular thanks to SLAAC/Ethernet/64. But if one keeps the /64 limit in the standards one is bound to revisit the initial address plans continuously. If on another hand the /64 limit is removed, and SLAAC/Ethernet made to allow for shorter-than-64 Interface IDs, or a new address autoconf mechanism altogether (DHCP?), then one no longer needs to regularly revisit initial addressing plans. Well, maybe with a successor to IPv6 but that would be much later. >> In practice these hierarchical architectures are ideals hard to >> implement. Because some hosts even in the core use >> SLAAC/Ethernet/64, because edges expand, etc. >> >> This makes that people need prefix lenghts of routes to lead to a >> particular /64 carved out of some other prefix, instead of >> aggregating. This leads to waste of publically routable space, or >> to the use of ULA prefixes, or NAT66 prefixes, which have >> inconvenients too. >> >> Alex > > Or you just requests the prefixed you need and use a routing > protocol. Except it's not very sure to be able to dynamically request prefixes. The places where this /64 limit is so visible, like cellular networks, are precisely places where DHCPv6 Prefix Delegation is crucially absent. Even if by specs (the theory) 3GPP mandates DHCPv6-PD, in practice cellular operators oppose the use of DHCPv6-PD on smartphones. The reasons of this opposition are: one /64 is more than enough for many devices (they dont understand SLAAC/Ethernet/64 and ptp links), difficulty to revisit address plans, lack of DHCPv6-PD software at a certain router manufacturer, etc. One could write a 100-page report about these reasons at cellular operators who dont reply to DHCPv6 PrefixDelegation requests. Also, one could list a number of non-cellular network operators, and IT departments, who also oppose DHCPv6 Prefix Delegation. Each have their reasons. Because of that, I propose to avoid painting ourselves in an "ivory tower" and imagine one could dynamically request /64 prefixes at a snap of a finger... Alex Alex > > >>> both of which benefit substantially to having a subnet size that >>> is always the same and never runs out of addresses. >>> >>> I'm confident this discussion will eventually resolve itself and >>> conclude that /64 is not the only valid prefix length, rigid >>> positions rarely are attainable. Water can flow or it can crash. >>> >>> >>> Even if you're right, the place to have that discussion is not on >>> this document. >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >>> ipv6@ietf.org Administrative Requests: >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list ipv6@ietf.org Administrative >> Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >> --------------------------------------------------------------------
- Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt> (I… The IESG
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Fernando Gont
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… David Farmer
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… David Farmer
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Fred Baker
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… David Farmer
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… David Farmer
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Karsten Thomann
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… otroan
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… David Farmer
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… David Farmer
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Randy Bush
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… otroan
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… sthaug
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… otroan
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Randy Bush
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Randy Bush
- AW: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Karsten Thomann
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… sthaug
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… otroan
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… otroan
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Randy Bush
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… otroan
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Randy Bush
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Mark Smith
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… David Farmer
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Alexandre Petrescu
- RE: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Manfredi, Albert E
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… james woodyatt
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Randy Bush
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Mark Smith
- RE: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Manfredi, Albert E
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Fred Baker
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… otroan
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… james woodyatt
- RE: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Manfredi, Albert E
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… otroan
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… David Farmer
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… james woodyatt
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Sander Steffann
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Sander Steffann
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Sander Steffann
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Sander Steffann
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… David Farmer
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Job Snijders
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Fred Baker
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Job Snijders
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Job Snijders
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Job Snijders
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Karsten Thomann
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Mark Smith
- RE: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Manfredi, Albert E
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Mark Smith
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Job Snijders
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Christopher Morrow
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Christopher Morrow
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Job Snijders
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… David Farmer
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Job Snijders
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Christopher Morrow
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Christopher Morrow
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Randy Bush
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Mark Andrews
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Job Snijders
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Job Snijders
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… David Farmer
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Job Snijders
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Mark Smith
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… David Farmer
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… David Farmer
- RE: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Manfredi, Albert E
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Randy Bush
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Randy Bush
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Randy Bush
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Fernando Gont
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Randy Bush
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Randy Bush
- RE: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Manfredi, Albert E
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Erik Kline
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Fernando Gont
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Erik Kline
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… sthaug
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Fernando Gont
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Fernando Gont
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… sthaug
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Fernando Gont
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Philip Homburg
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Pierre Pfister
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Job Snijders
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Wilco Baan Hofman
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Job Snijders
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Christopher Morrow
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… 神明達哉
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… David Farmer
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Christopher Morrow
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Mark Andrews
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Jared Mauch
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Jared Mauch
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Fernando Gont
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… David Farmer
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Pierre Pfister
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… David Farmer
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Peter Hessler
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Nick Hilliard
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Fernando Gont
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… 神明達哉
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… 神明達哉
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Xing Li
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Xing Li
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Xing Li
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07.txt… Alexandre Petrescu