Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people come from?
Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> Sun, 31 May 2020 22:35 UTC
Return-Path: <eckert@i4.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C8F83A0528 for <ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sun, 31 May 2020 15:35:48 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.65
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.65 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FyWDA4pDYKT4 for <ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sun, 31 May 2020 15:35:46 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2E8433A0484 for <6man@ietf.org>; Sun, 31 May 2020 15:35:46 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.52]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id E759D548067; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 00:35:38 +0200 (CEST)
Received: by faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id DF93C440043; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 00:35:38 +0200 (CEST)
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2020 00:35:38 +0200
From: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>
To: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
Cc: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>, 6MAN <6man@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people come from?
Message-ID: <20200531223538.GE62020@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
References: <CAO42Z2yxPvG6R_e3LUV1FkxPthgrAQ=Hq4f82k==o=TLXhZi5g@mail.gmail.com> <81825E36-1872-48D0-A2F1-9653BFB665C0@employees.org> <B3D88427-049E-46B7-A936-18469ED87A31@gmail.com> <6FD66AF5-2ACB-463A-80E2-278DF11CC86B@tzi.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In-Reply-To: <6FD66AF5-2ACB-463A-80E2-278DF11CC86B@tzi.org>
User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13)
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/omJtIeyJ9rbRd8Zo2J6uz4_o6i4>
X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" <ipv6.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ipv6>, <mailto:ipv6-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/>
List-Post: <mailto:ipv6@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ipv6-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6>, <mailto:ipv6-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 22:35:49 -0000
Carsten, Not sure if you have followed the ongoing backpressure from IRTF and IESG leadership to bless any form of forum/WG for discussions about longer term network layer architecture. We did discuss this a bit on architecture-discuss around the IETF leaderhip response to some liaison with ITU-T, if you remember. And direct responses from IRTF chair re evolution of network protocols where even more rejecting: "That is not research ... or after chopping it up into sub-problems it should fit into some set of WG/RGs". And that thinking of chopping larger architectural discussions into smaller pieces fitting into existing RG/WGs is IMHO the root of our (IETF/IRTF) problems to do anything strategic. For example: We have two WGs (6man, Spring), that argue how many hundreds of bytes in header space can be spent on primarily steering, and at the same time, we did not increase the header space for path QoS for more than 40 years from its original 8 bit. Just look at the pain with ECT(1) for L4S. How ridiculous is that. And thats just the latest of frustration about QoS being handled in network headers like, oh, i don't know, a leper? for lack of better term. In QoS you can run around multiple TSV groups to argue functionality and then multiple RTG groups to argue encoding of such functionality in network headers whose groups mostly do not care or know about QoS. That is IETF friendlyness for newcomers. Or should i say newipcomers ? And whatever we do, if we wanted it to be efficient, we would have to do it for MPLS, IPv4 and IPv6, unless we really had a version of a network layer protocol that could really superceed MPLS and IPv4 without taking away their benefits, which unfortunately is what current IPv6 does, at least in the eyes of those who will continue to use IPv4 and MPLS, and we know what those markets are. I think an evolution of IPv6 could be built to be backward compatible and interoperable with IPv4/MPLS and then we would only have to bother about defining new functionality like better QoS once. Did i say variable lengh addresses ? IMHO the next generation network layer really should be a "Unified IP". Cheers Toerless On Sun, May 31, 2020 at 10:27:28AM +0200, Carsten Bormann wrote: > On 2020-05-31, at 10:20, Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Perhaps it is time we set up an IP development working group? > > That would be an IRTF research group, no? > > Grüße, Carsten > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- --- tte@cs.fau.de
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Philip Homburg
- So where have all these new 6man WG people come f… Mark Smith
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Andrew Alston
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… tom petch
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Voyer, Daniel
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… otroan
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Alexandre Petrescu
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Templin (US), Fred L
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Voyer, Daniel
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Templin (US), Fred L
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Bernier, Daniel
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Andrew Alston
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Nick Hilliard
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Xing Li
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Sander Steffann
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… otroan
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Adrian Farrel
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… 神明達哉
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Voyer, Daniel
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Ron Bonica
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Fernando Gont
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Turchanyi Geza
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Greg Mirsky
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Brian E Carpenter
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Andrew Alston
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)
- Need a journalist (Re: So where have all these ne… Carsten Bormann
- Re: Need a journalist (Re: So where have all thes… Ca By
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Andrew Alston
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Robert Raszuk
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Andrew Alston
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Robert Raszuk
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Andrew Alston
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Robert Raszuk
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Stewart Bryant
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Ron Bonica
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Stewart Bryant
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Fred Baker
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Voyer, Daniel
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Ted Lemon
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Jared Mauch
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Ron Bonica
- One size fits all !?! (was: Re: So where have all… Toerless Eckert
- RE: One size fits all !?! (was: Re: So where have… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Greg Mirsky
- Re: One size fits all !?! (was: Re: So where have… Toerless Eckert
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Greg Mirsky
- RE: One size fits all !?! (was: Re: So where have… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Mark Smith
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Robert Raszuk
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Mark Smith
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Robert Raszuk
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Darren Dukes (ddukes)
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Ole Troan
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Stewart Bryant
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Stewart Bryant
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Carsten Bormann
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Toerless Eckert
- Re: One size fits all !?! (was: Re: So where have… Philip Homburg
- RE: One size fits all !?! (was: Re: So where have… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: One size fits all !?! (was: Re: So where have… John Scudder
- RE: One size fits all !?! (was: Re: So where have… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: One size fits all !?! (was: Re: So where have… Philip Homburg