Re: Meta-issues: On the deprecation of the fragmentation function
"C. M. Heard" <heard@pobox.com> Sun, 30 June 2013 20:42 UTC
Return-Path: <heard@pobox.com>
X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B4BB21F9C51 for <ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sun, 30 Jun 2013 13:42:10 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.599
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BOg5K-riZQ1k for <ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sun, 30 Jun 2013 13:42:06 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from shell4.bayarea.net (shell4.bayarea.net [209.128.82.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D177921F9C4F for <ipv6@ietf.org>; Sun, 30 Jun 2013 13:42:05 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (qmail 12479 invoked from network); 30 Jun 2013 13:42:02 -0700
Received: from shell4.bayarea.net (209.128.82.1) by shell4.bayarea.net with (DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA encrypted) SMTP; 30 Jun 2013 13:42:02 -0700
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2013 13:42:02 -0700
From: "C. M. Heard" <heard@pobox.com>
X-X-Sender: heard@shell4.bayarea.net
To: IPv6 <ipv6@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Meta-issues: On the deprecation of the fragmentation function
In-Reply-To: <51CE05E5.4040202@si6networks.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1306301228050.21119@shell4.bayarea.net>
References: <51CE05E5.4040202@si6networks.com> <2CF4CB03E2AA464BA0982EC92A02CE2509F85151@BY2PRD0512MB653.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <51C56E60.5040009@fud.no> <8C48B86A895913448548E6D15DA7553B9237F3@xmb-rcd-x09.cisco.com> <CAKr6gn17O+B78HJofr-z7Nsgv-y8+w4hgKy+YPicgNS126qwXA@mail.gmail.com> <2CF4CB03E2AA464BA0982EC92A02CE2509F870FC@BY2PRD0512MB653.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <CAKr6gn2zu2n-pJMirG-seN5WX=Evyquu9EqqLOV-zf-RKQ9eYg@mail.gmail.com> <20130625015317.6B256363BD8F@drugs.dv.isc.org> <2CF4CB03E2AA464BA0982EC92A02CE2509F878B0@BY2PRD0512MB653.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <20130625040207.1CCA7363C42A@drugs.dv.isc.org> <CAKr6gn1cnGfktfKraQegHNP_kjHyzNKGzw3ZDe1cZ__Czsu_kw@mail.gmail.com> <51C98103.4050008@fud.no> <010f01ce71e3$7f43aea0$7dcb0be0$@tndh.net> <20130625233717.618C53642429@drugs.dv.isc.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset="US-ASCII"
X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12
Precedence: list
List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" <ipv6.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ipv6>, <mailto:ipv6-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ipv6>
List-Post: <mailto:ipv6@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ipv6-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6>, <mailto:ipv6-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2013 20:42:10 -0000
On Fri, 28 Jun 2013, Fernando Gont wrote: Fernando> I wanted to comment on some met-issues regarding the deprecation of the Fernando> IPv6 fragmentation function. Fernando> Fernando> ** On the motivation of deprecating the fragmentation function ** Fernando> Fernando> So far (and without having read Ron's recent I-D -- shame on me), it Fernando> looks like the main two reasons for deprecating the fragmentation Fernando> function are: Fernando> Fernando> 1) The inability of middle-boxes to parse past the first XXX bytes of a Fernando> packet Fernando> Fernando> 2) Unavailability of the connection-id (five-tuple) in the non-first Fernando> fragments. I disagree -- I think Mark Andrews got it (mostly) right in his message of Wed, 26 Jun 2013: Mark> One needs to get the L4 information the firewall/loadbalancer uses in *each* fragment. The flow label, if properly set at or near the source, could plausibly address "2)" -- see https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-intarea-flow-label-balancing/?include_text=1 However, it won't help middle boxes that implement stateless packet filters. Indeed, such boxes have fundamental problems with non-first fragments irrespective of how many bytes of extension headers they can parse or whether there are sufficient length limits on the extension header chain that guarantee that the L4 header always appears in the first fragment. As I see it, the biggest meta-issue in this discussionis for the IPv6 WG is to decide out whether middle boxes that implement stateless packet filters with a "default-deny" policy will be a significant part of the landscape indefinitely, regardless of what the IETF says about their merits or lack thereof. If so, fragmented IP datagrams will continue be problematic in the general case; and since the job of this (or any other) IETF WG is to make the internet work better, it will be incumbent on the WG to deal with the issue. Ron Bonica and co-authors have made one proposal to do just that. Thinking aloud ... If we decide that the only path forward is to deprecate IPv6 fragmentation and reassambly (presumably not IPv4, since it's at end of life), the next question I see is what can or should be done to allow UDP and kin to send large datagrams. A UDP replacement with fragmentation and reassembly built in to the transport layer is one possibility. The questions that come to mind are (a) is this capability actually needed, and if so, (b) can it be incrementally deployed, in the face of middle boxes with "default deny" policies causing them to discard protocols that they don't know? //cmh
- Re: draft-bonica-6man-frag-deprecate sthaug
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… Fred Baker (fred)
- Re: Meta-issues: On the deprecation of the fragme… Carsten Bormann
- RE: draft-bonica-6man-frag-deprecate Templin, Fred L
- FW: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… Ronald Bonica
- Re: FW: New Version Notification for draft-bonica… Arturo Servin
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… Mark Smith
- Re: FW: New Version Notification for draft-bonica… Tassos Chatzithomaoglou
- Re: FW: New Version Notification for draft-bonica… Simon Perreault
- RE: FW: New Version Notification for draft-bonica… Ronald Bonica
- Re: RE: FW: New Version Notification for draft-bo… Ray Hunter
- Re: FW: New Version Notification for draft-bonica… joel jaeggli
- RE: FW: New Version Notification for draft-bonica… Ronald Bonica
- RE: RE: FW: New Version Notification for draft-bo… Ronald Bonica
- Re: FW: New Version Notification for draft-bonica… Ray Hunter
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… Fred Baker (fred)
- RE: FW: New Version Notification for draft-bonica… Ronald Bonica
- Re: FW: New Version Notification for draft-bonica… Brian E Carpenter
- RE: FW: New Version Notification for draft-bonica… Ronald Bonica
- Re: FW: New Version Notification for draft-bonica… Tore Anderson
- Re: FW: New Version Notification for draft-bonica… Mark Andrews
- RE: FW: New Version Notification for draft-bonica… Templin, Fred L
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… Fred Baker (fred)
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… Glen Turner
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… George Michaelson
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… Mark Andrews
- RE: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… Sheng Jiang
- Re: FW: New Version Notification for draft-bonica… Doug Barton
- RE: FW: New Version Notification for draft-bonica… Liubing (Leo)
- Re: FW: New Version Notification for draft-bonica… Mark Andrews
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… Tore Anderson
- RE: FW: New Version Notification for draft-bonica… Ronald Bonica
- RE: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… Ronald Bonica
- RE: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… Ronald Bonica
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… Ole Troan
- RE: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… Templin, Fred L
- Re: FW: New Version Notification for draft-bonica… Marc Lampo
- Re: FW: New Version Notification for draft-bonica… Mark Smith
- Re: FW: New Version Notification for draft-bonica… Hagen Paul Pfeifer
- Re: FW: New Version Notification for draft-bonica… Hagen Paul Pfeifer
- RE: FW: New Version Notification for draft-bonica… Ronald Bonica
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… james woodyatt
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… joel jaeggli
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… james woodyatt
- RE: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… Sheng Jiang
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… George Michaelson
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… Mark Andrews
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… joel jaeggli
- RE: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… Ronald Bonica
- Re: FW: New Version Notification for draft-bonica… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: FW: New Version Notification for draft-bonica… Randy Bush
- Re: FW: New Version Notification for draft-bonica… joel jaeggli
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… Mark Andrews
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… George Michaelson
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… Fred Baker (fred)
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… Geoff Huston
- Re: FW: New Version Notification for draft-bonica… Mark Andrews
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… Mark Andrews
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… Bob Hinden
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… Glen Turner
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… Geoff Huston
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… Tore Anderson
- Re: FW: New Version Notification for draft-bonica… John Leslie
- RE: FW: New Version Notification for draft-bonica… Templin, Fred L
- RE: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… Christian Huitema
- Re: [6MAN] New Version Notification for draft-bon… Warren Kumari
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… Ole Troan
- Re: FW: New Version Notification for draft-bonica… Brian Jones
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… Randy Bush
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… Ole Troan
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… Randy Bush
- RE: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… Tony Hain
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… Mark Andrews
- RE: draft-bonica-6man-frag-deprecate Templin, Fred L
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… Fred Baker (fred)
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… james woodyatt
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… Randy Bush
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… Mark Andrews
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… George Michaelson
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… Mark Andrews
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… Kevin Lahey
- RE: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… Tony Hain
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… Mark Andrews
- RE: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… Sheng Jiang
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… Fred Baker (fred)
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… Randy Bush
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… Mark ZZZ Smith
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… Fred Baker (fred)
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… Hagen Paul Pfeifer
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… Mark Andrews
- Re: draft-bonica-6man-frag-deprecate Hagen Paul Pfeifer
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… Fernando Gont
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… james woodyatt
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… Mark Andrews
- draft-bonica-6man-frag-deprecate Brian E Carpenter
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… Randy Bush
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… Fred Baker (fred)
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… Fernando Gont
- Re: draft-bonica-6man-frag-deprecate Marc Lampo
- RE: draft-bonica-6man-frag-deprecate Templin, Fred L
- Re: draft-bonica-6man-frag-deprecate Antonios Atlasis
- RE: draft-bonica-6man-frag-deprecate Templin, Fred L
- Re: draft-bonica-6man-frag-deprecate Antonios Atlasis
- RE: draft-bonica-6man-frag-deprecate Tony Hain
- Re: draft-bonica-6man-frag-deprecate Fred Baker (fred)
- Re: draft-bonica-6man-frag-deprecate Mark Andrews
- Re: draft-bonica-6man-frag-deprecate Karl Auer
- RE: draft-bonica-6man-frag-deprecate Templin, Fred L
- Re: draft-bonica-6man-frag-deprecate Ole Troan
- Re: draft-bonica-6man-frag-deprecate Mark Andrews
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… Erik Nygren
- RE: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… Templin, Fred L
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… james woodyatt
- RE: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… Templin, Fred L
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… james woodyatt
- RE: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… Templin, Fred L
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… Brian E Carpenter
- RE: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… Templin, Fred L
- Meta-issues: On the deprecation of the fragmentat… Fernando Gont
- Re: Meta-issues: On the deprecation of the fragme… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… Brian E Carpenter
- RE: draft-bonica-6man-frag-deprecate Templin, Fred L
- RE: Meta-issues: On the deprecation of the fragme… Templin, Fred L
- RE: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… Templin, Fred L
- Re: Meta-issues: On the deprecation of the fragme… Hannes Frederic Sowa
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… Brian E Carpenter
- RE: draft-bonica-6man-frag-deprecate Templin, Fred L
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… Doug Barton
- Re: Meta-issues: On the deprecation of the fragme… Antonios Atlasis
- Re: draft-bonica-6man-frag-deprecate Ole Troan
- Re: Meta-issues: On the deprecation of the fragme… C. M. Heard
- RE: draft-bonica-6man-frag-deprecate Templin, Fred L
- RE: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… Templin, Fred L
- RE: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-6ma… Templin, Fred L
- Re: Meta-issues: On the deprecation of the fragme… Francis Dupont
- Re: Meta-issues: On the deprecation of the fragme… Marc Lampo
- Re: Meta-issues: On the deprecation of the fragme… Fernando Gont
- Re: Meta-issues: On the deprecation of the fragme… Fernando Gont
- RE: Meta-issues: On the deprecation of the fragme… Manfredi, Albert E
- RE: Meta-issues: On the deprecation of the fragme… Manfredi, Albert E
- Re: Meta-issues: On the deprecation of the fragme… Mark Andrews
- RE: Meta-issues: On the deprecation of the fragme… RJ Atkinson
- Re: Meta-issues: On the deprecation of the fragme… Randy Bush
- Re: Meta-issues: On the deprecation of the fragme… Brian Jones
- Re: Meta-issues: On the deprecation of the fragme… Carsten Bormann
- Re: Meta-issues: On the deprecation of the fragme… RJ Atkinson
- Re: Meta-issues: On the deprecation of the fragme… Doug Barton
- RE: Meta-issues: On the deprecation of the fragme… Ronald Bonica
- Re: Meta-issues: On the deprecation of the fragme… Doug Barton
- Re: Meta-issues: On the deprecation of the fragme… Carsten Bormann
- RE: Meta-issues: On the deprecation of the fragme… Templin, Fred L
- RE: Meta-issues: On the deprecation of the fragme… Ronald Bonica
- Re: Meta-issues: On the deprecation of the fragme… RJ Atkinson
- RE: Meta-issues: On the deprecation of the fragme… Templin, Fred L
- RE: Meta-issues: On the deprecation of the fragme… Templin, Fred L
- RE: Meta-issues: On the deprecation of the fragme… Ronald Bonica
- RE: Meta-issues: On the deprecation of the fragme… Templin, Fred L
- RE: Meta-issues: On the deprecation of the fragme… Ronald Bonica
- RE: Meta-issues: On the deprecation of the fragme… Templin, Fred L
- Re: Meta-issues: On the deprecation of the fragme… james woodyatt
- RE: Meta-issues: On the deprecation of the fragme… Ronald Bonica
- RE: Meta-issues: On the deprecation of the fragme… Templin, Fred L
- RE: Meta-issues: On the deprecation of the fragme… Templin, Fred L
- RE: Meta-issues: On the deprecation of the fragme… Templin, Fred L
- Re: Meta-issues: On the deprecation of the fragme… james woodyatt
- RE: Meta-issues: On the deprecation of the fragme… Ronald Bonica
- RE: Meta-issues: On the deprecation of the fragme… Templin, Fred L
- Re: Meta-issues: On the deprecation of the fragme… Brian E Carpenter
- RE: "Deprecate" Templin, Fred L
- Re: "Deprecate" Mark Andrews
- Re: "Deprecate" Francis Dupont
- Re: "Deprecate" RJ Atkinson
- Re: "Deprecate" RJ Atkinson
- RE: "Deprecate" Templin, Fred L
- RE: "Deprecate" Templin, Fred L
- RE: "Deprecate" Templin, Fred L
- RE: "Deprecate" Templin, Fred L
- RE: "Deprecate" C. M. Heard