RE: One size fits all !?! (was: Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people come from?)
"Templin (US), Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> Mon, 01 June 2020 17:47 UTC
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From: "Templin (US), Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>
To: John Scudder <jgs@juniper.net>
CC: Philip Homburg <pch-ipv6-ietf-6@u-1.phicoh.com>, "ipv6@ietf.org" <ipv6@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: One size fits all !?! (was: Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people come from?)
Thread-Topic: One size fits all !?! (was: Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people come from?)
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Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2020 17:47:23 +0000
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Good point, John, I may have glossed over it too quickly. Definitely worth considering. Still, on multi-access links I wonder if there may be challenges but certainly something we should consider. Fred > -----Original Message----- > From: John Scudder [mailto:jgs@juniper.net] > Sent: Monday, June 01, 2020 10:44 AM > To: Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> > Cc: Philip Homburg <pch-ipv6-ietf-6@u-1.phicoh.com>; ipv6@ietf.org > Subject: Re: One size fits all !?! (was: Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people come from?) > > Isn’t that a good application for link-level header compression, as Philip alludes to being used on good ol’ SLIP and PPP? > > Regards, > > —John > > > On Jun 1, 2020, at 1:41 PM, Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> wrote: > > > > [External Email. Be cautious of content] > > > > > > Philip, good message but I do see an element of truth in what the original poster > > was trying to communicate. In aviation, we often deal with wireless links with > > bandwidth less than 1Mbps - sometimes even *much* less. Asking those links > > to carry at least two IPv6 addresses per packet is a considerable commitment > > of resources, but that is our current plan. Should we be open to considering > > alternatives? > > > > Thanks - Fred > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: ipv6 [mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Philip Homburg > >> Sent: Monday, June 01, 2020 9:45 AM > >> To: ipv6@ietf.org > >> Subject: Re: One size fits all !?! (was: Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people come from?) > >> > >> In your letter dated Fri, 29 May 2020 19:12:34 +0200 you wrote: > >>> IMHO, it is a misguided dogma to think that RFC8200 128 bit > >>> addresses IPv6 is a one-size-fits-all solution not only for > >>> what it was built for, the Internet, but also all arbitrary controlled > >>> networks - for the infinite future! > >> > >> For IPv4, one-size-fits-all was a good thing. Anybody who remembers > >> the nightmare of many different network protocols, all slightly different > >> knows how great it was to have just one protocol. > >> > >> Even in the early days, one-size-fits-all was a bit of a problem. I remember > >> SLIP and PPP header compression trying do deal with big headers on slow links. > >> > >> Right now we have IPv6, which can address all devices in the world. Which is > >> great for software, no need to worry where something is, just generate an > >> IPv6 packet and it will get there somehow. > >> > >> If we look at the overhead of IPv6 then certainly at speed of 100 Mbps and > >> higher, the effect of bigger addresses is left in the noise. > >> > >> Obviously, IPv6 on slow links in a limited domain is not a great fit. Does > >> that mean that IPv6 has to change? What is the benefit for all those devices > >> that are on fast links and have no problem? > >> > >>> IoT with IPv6 is an extreme pain (header compression, MTU). > >>> Most controlled networks do not even want global addresses (security, > >>> segment based app-gateway architectures, ...). > >> > >> My first question would be, why not use IPv4 if address size and MTU are > >> a problem? IPv4 is certainly a mature technology. > >> > >>> 16-bit/32-bit/48-bit address sizes would be highly desirable. > >>> Even the 1980'th CLNP network protocol had variable sized addresses. > >> > >> Nobody who does low level software wants veriable size anything. > >> > >> If I compare processing an IPv4 header (which is variable size) with an IPv6 > >> header, then dealing with an IPv6 header is so much easier. With variable > >> length addresses that would only get worse. > >> > >>> IPv6 has not solved core problems to be even equal to L2 switching: > >>> plug routers together, get automatic connectivity, no bother about addresses. > >>> CLNP was a lot closer to that goal too. > >> > >> Both DHCPv6 PD and homenet deal with this problem. > >> > >>> but think really about another > >>> instance of IPv6-NG, but this time backward compatible. > >> > >> I doubt that the world is waiting for a third protocol that brings a > >> completely new set of issues. > >> > >> And I have no clue what a backward compatible internet protocol is supposed > >> to look like. People have complained for years that IPv6 is not backward > >> compatible with IPv4, but in all that time I have never seen a sensible > >> protocol that is actually backward compatible with IPv4. > >> > >>> If we continue to proliferate this "one-size-fits-all" myth, > >>> then we are just continuing to extend our own version of > >>> a winchester mystery house and kill our industry. > >> > >> I doubt that the IETF has any power to stop a new local networking protocol. > >> > >> If, for example, IoT needs a light weight local networking protocol, then > >> anybody can just design it. It may help adoption if there is an easy way > >> to convert to and from IPv6, but such a protocol can easily exist outside > >> the internet world. > >> > >> > >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > >> ipv6@ietf.org > >> Administrative Requests: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6__;!!NEt6yMaO- > gk!UJAdvTzn_Z3n89OKnyACbWXrj22QQm2ZQ2bl3eO4TithKf6Zoo08UEqtwY0FLw$ > >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > > ipv6@ietf.org > > Administrative Requests: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6__;!!NEt6yMaO- > gk!UJAdvTzn_Z3n89OKnyACbWXrj22QQm2ZQ2bl3eO4TithKf6Zoo08UEqtwY0FLw$ > > --------------------------------------------------------------------
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Philip Homburg
- So where have all these new 6man WG people come f… Mark Smith
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Andrew Alston
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… tom petch
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Voyer, Daniel
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… otroan
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Alexandre Petrescu
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Templin (US), Fred L
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Voyer, Daniel
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Templin (US), Fred L
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Bernier, Daniel
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Andrew Alston
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Nick Hilliard
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Xing Li
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Sander Steffann
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… otroan
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Adrian Farrel
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… 神明達哉
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Voyer, Daniel
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Ron Bonica
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Fernando Gont
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Turchanyi Geza
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Greg Mirsky
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Brian E Carpenter
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Andrew Alston
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)
- Need a journalist (Re: So where have all these ne… Carsten Bormann
- Re: Need a journalist (Re: So where have all thes… Ca By
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Andrew Alston
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Robert Raszuk
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Andrew Alston
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Robert Raszuk
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Andrew Alston
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Robert Raszuk
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Stewart Bryant
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Ron Bonica
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Stewart Bryant
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Fred Baker
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Voyer, Daniel
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Ted Lemon
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Jared Mauch
- RE: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Ron Bonica
- One size fits all !?! (was: Re: So where have all… Toerless Eckert
- RE: One size fits all !?! (was: Re: So where have… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Greg Mirsky
- Re: One size fits all !?! (was: Re: So where have… Toerless Eckert
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Greg Mirsky
- RE: One size fits all !?! (was: Re: So where have… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Mark Smith
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Robert Raszuk
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Mark Smith
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Robert Raszuk
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Darren Dukes (ddukes)
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Ole Troan
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Stewart Bryant
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Stewart Bryant
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Carsten Bormann
- Re: So where have all these new 6man WG people co… Toerless Eckert
- Re: One size fits all !?! (was: Re: So where have… Philip Homburg
- RE: One size fits all !?! (was: Re: So where have… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: One size fits all !?! (was: Re: So where have… John Scudder
- RE: One size fits all !?! (was: Re: So where have… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: One size fits all !?! (was: Re: So where have… Philip Homburg