Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-11.txt>
Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> Wed, 11 April 2018 02:48 UTC
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Sender: Brian Carpenter <becarpenter46@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-11.txt>
To: stefano previdi <stefano@previdi.net>, Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>
Cc: IPv6 List <ipv6@ietf.org>, Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>
References: <20160428004904.25189.43047.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <FB1C6E49-81F7-49DD-8E8B-2C0C4735071B@gmail.com> <SN6PR05MB424035B6FECB0057676067B1AEA40@SN6PR05MB4240.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <87EAF1D7-FC8A-4661-990E-ECCF4AA7C12E@previdi.net> <SN6PR05MB42406D76603C4D7E1B3BE321AEBB0@SN6PR05MB4240.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <73072E00-E549-488E-8960-B62ACE2F8511@previdi.net>
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2018 14:48:00 +1200
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On 09/04/2018 20:09, stefano previdi wrote: ... >> By contrast, draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing header defines the Segments Left as follows: >> >> "Defined in [RFC8200], it contains the index, in the Segment List, of the next segment to inspect. Segments Left is decremented at each segment. Maybe you should say: Segments Left is decremented at each segment after processing the segment list and before forwarding the packet. >> Therefore, if a packet arrives at a node and the following conditions are true, the node processes Segment[0]: >> >> - The packets IPv6 Destination address is local to the node >> - The packet contains a Routing Extension Header >> - The SL value in the Routing Extension Header is equal to 0 > > > SL==0 doesn’t imply any processing of the SRH. Both END and END.x functions starts with “IF SegmentsLeft > 0”. IMHO that needs to be stated normatively in the spec, even if it seems obvious. The section you are referring to only says: "In this section we review two functions that may be associated to a segment:" and cites an informational reference (draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing). So the junior programmer asked to actually write some network processor code doesn't know that she MUST NOT process the SRH, because it's only a lower case "may". Brian
- I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-default-iids-11.txt internet-drafts
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-default-iids-11.t… Alissa Cooper
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-default-iids-11.t… weigengyu
- 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-default-… Bob Hinden
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… Mark Smith
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… 神明達哉
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… Alissa Cooper
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… Mark Smith
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-default-iids-11.t… weigengyu
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-default-iids-11.t… Mark Smith
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… Alissa Cooper
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… 神明達哉
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… Alissa Cooper
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-default-iids-11.t… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… joel jaeggli
- RE: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… Manfredi, Albert E
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… joel jaeggli
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… Mark Smith
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… Alissa Cooper
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… Fernando Gont
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… Fernando Gont
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… Fernando Gont
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… 神明達哉
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… Fernando Gont
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… Fernando Gont
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-default-iids-11.t… Fernando Gont
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… Fernando Gont
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… 神明達哉
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-default-iids-11.t… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… Alissa Cooper
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… Mark Smith
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… 神明達哉
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… Lorenzo Colitti
- RE: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… Manfredi, Albert E
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… otroan
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… 神明達哉
- default-iids: dropping requirement 1 in Section 3 Alissa Cooper
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… Fernando Gont
- RE: default-iids: dropping requirement 1 in Secti… Manfredi, Albert E
- Re: default-iids: dropping requirement 1 in Secti… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: default-iids: dropping requirement 1 in Secti… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… Fernando Gont
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… Fernando Gont
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… Fernando Gont
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… Mark Smith
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… Lorenzo Colitti
- RE: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… Manfredi, Albert E
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… Fernando Gont
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… Fernando Gont
- Re: default-iids: dropping requirement 1 in Secti… Fernando Gont
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… Fernando Gont
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… Fernando Gont
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… Fernando Gont
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… Fernando Gont
- Re: default-iids: dropping requirement 1 in Secti… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… otroan
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: default-iids: dropping requirement 1 in Secti… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: default-iids: dropping requirement 1 in Secti… Fernando Gont
- Re: default-iids: dropping requirement 1 in Secti… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: default-iids: dropping requirement 1 in Secti… Fernando Gont
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-defa… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-default-iids-11.t… weigengyu
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-default-iids-11.t… Brian E Carpenter
- 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-maxra-01> Bob Hinden
- REMINDER: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6ma… Bob Hinden
- Re: REMINDER: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: REMINDER: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf… Tim Chown
- Re: REMINDER: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf… Suresh Krishnan
- Re: REMINDER: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf… Suresh Krishnan
- Re: REMINDER: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf… Fernando Gont
- 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-ndpioian… Bob Hinden
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-ndpi… Mikael Abrahamsson
- RE: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-ndpi… Templin, Fred L
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-ndpi… Bob Hinden
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-ndpi… Nick Hilliard
- 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-ndpioian… Bob Hinden
- 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-rfc6434-… Bob Hinden
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-rfc6… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-rfc6… Tim Chown
- RE: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-rfc6… Templin, Fred L
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-rfc6… Bob Hinden
- RE: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-rfc6… mohamed.boucadair
- 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segment-… Bob Hinden
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Tom Herbert
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Joel M. Halpern
- ECMP and flow label [Re: 6man w.g. last call for … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: ECMP and flow label [Re: 6man w.g. last call … Joel M. Halpern
- Re: ECMP and flow label [Re: 6man w.g. last call … Tom Herbert
- Re: ECMP and flow label [Re: 6man w.g. last call … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: ECMP and flow label [Re: 6man w.g. last call … Brian E Carpenter
- RE: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Ron Bonica
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Brian E Carpenter
- Issue Tracker for 6man w.g. last call for <draft-… Bob Hinden
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… stefano previdi
- RE: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Ron Bonica
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Darren Dukes (ddukes)
- RE: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Ron Bonica
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Darren Dukes (ddukes)
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Kentaro Ebisawa
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Darren Dukes (ddukes)
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… stefano previdi
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Brian E Carpenter
- RE: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Ron Bonica
- RE: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Ron Bonica
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… stefano previdi
- RE: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Ron Bonica
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Voyer, Daniel
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Stefano Previdi (IETF)
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Darren Dukes (ddukes)
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Darren Dukes (ddukes)
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Darren Dukes (ddukes)
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Darren Dukes (ddukes)
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Kentaro Ebisawa
- 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segment-… Bob Hinden
- RE: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Ron Bonica
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Darren Dukes (ddukes)
- RE: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Ron Bonica
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Nick Hilliard
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Darren Dukes (ddukes)
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Nick Hilliard
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Bob Hinden
- RE: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Ron Bonica
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Bob Hinden
- RE: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Ron Bonica
- RE: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Xiejingrong
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Bob Hinden
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Darren Dukes (ddukes)
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… stefano previdi
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Tom Herbert
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Darren Dukes (ddukes)
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Tom Herbert
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Tom Herbert
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Darren Dukes (ddukes)
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Tom Herbert
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Bob Hinden
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Bob Hinden
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Tom Herbert
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Darren Dukes (ddukes)
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Bob Hinden
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Darren Dukes (ddukes)
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Joel Halpern Direct
- RE: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… mohamed.boucadair
- RE: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Lizhenbin
- RE: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Chengli (Cheng Li)
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Tom Herbert
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Darren Dukes (ddukes)
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Darren Dukes (ddukes)
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Tom Herbert
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Zafar Ali (zali)
- RE: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Voyer, Daniel
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Darren Dukes (ddukes)
- RE: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Chengli (Cheng Li)
- RE: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Chengli (Cheng Li)
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Tom Herbert
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Tom Herbert
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Darren Dukes (ddukes)
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Darren Dukes (ddukes)
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Tom Herbert
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Darren Dukes (ddukes)
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Darren Dukes (ddukes)
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Joel Halpern Direct
- RE: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Chengli (Cheng Li)
- RE: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Chengli (Cheng Li)
- RE: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Chengli (Cheng Li)
- RE: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Joel Halpern Direct
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Darren Dukes (ddukes)
- RE: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Bernier, Daniel
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Tom Herbert
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-segm… Gyan Mishra
- Conclusion of 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf… Bob Hinden
- 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4941b… Bob Hinden
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4… Erik Kline
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-rfc4… Fernando Gont
- 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-grand> Bob Hinden
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-gran… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-gran… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-gran… Mark Smith
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-gran… Jen Linkova
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-gran… Michael Richardson
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-gran… Bob Hinden
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-gran… Eric Vyncke (evyncke)
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-gran… Fernando Gont
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-gran… Eric Vyncke (evyncke)
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-gran… Mark Smith
- RE: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-gran… Adrian Farrel
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-gran… Mark Smith
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-gran… Gyan Mishra
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-gran… Gyan Mishra
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-gran… Jen Linkova
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-gran… Jen Linkova
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-gran… Jen Linkova
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-gran… Fernando Gont
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-gran… Bob Hinden
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-gran… Mark Smith
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-gran… Jen Linkova
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-gran… Jen Linkova
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-gran… Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-gran… Mark Smith
- Re: 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-gran… Mark Smith
- Conclusion of 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf… Bob Hinden