RE: Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (OMNI)
"Templin (US), Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> Mon, 19 October 2020 13:29 UTC
Return-Path: <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>
X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95E183A0991; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 06:29:49 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -0.2
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=boeing.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4tDW71h70ncy; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 06:29:47 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from clt-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (clt-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net [130.76.144.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AF4EC3A098B; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 06:29:47 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clt-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (8.15.2/8.15.2/DOWNSTREAM_MBSOUT) with SMTP id 09JDTiAU022139; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 09:29:45 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=boeing.com; s=boeing-s1912; t=1603114185; bh=QXsRDIbmemr/j2Tf52HKclNUZz11luYP3Bvcu47TMwA=; h=From:To:CC:Subject:Date:From; b=qX6dIDpYYxvovzaBUodSKDuWcCnpioerP6wRndvj7rZuOlnov9V/hWjjPxAVqma1M +4C8JzBZ3h8j0ENODhdnt37m91bfPKVEq1qD8ss/5WCMlKCTlfbiwl5TipzItpvDx3 Bh9aQSdcwAwnFDkeCfviAb6oU+pdHCPEaQn24AWz+a3d9rX5YlUjbLtGG6TFHYwvWO c2q56hhZ+qJGEvOt3QkoJfekGVlp9SQnCGsQcxPtLba5GC8ExiEWGTSfwBE6lIUoyz kA9ey0TMTopH/3mZi+TBTJi75Lzjs07wNVveGBHg5tMoeGfM7ow0zfKy16B9m8mShw SBQtVG9hdqPCA==
Received: from XCH16-01-09.nos.boeing.com (xch16-01-09.nos.boeing.com [144.115.65.234]) by clt-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (8.15.2/8.15.2/8.15.2/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTPS id 09JDTaaJ021049 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 19 Oct 2020 09:29:36 -0400
Received: from XCH16-07-10.nos.boeing.com (144.115.66.112) by XCH16-01-09.nos.boeing.com (144.115.65.234) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.1.2044.4; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 06:29:34 -0700
Received: from XCH16-07-10.nos.boeing.com ([fe80::1522:f068:5766:53b5]) by XCH16-07-10.nos.boeing.com ([fe80::1522:f068:5766:53b5%2]) with mapi id 15.01.2044.004; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 06:29:34 -0700
From: "Templin (US), Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>
To: Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>
CC: "Manfredi (US), Albert E" <albert.e.manfredi@boeing.com>, IPv6 List <ipv6@ietf.org>, Ole Trøan <otroan@employees.org>, "atn@ietf.org" <atn@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (OMNI)
Thread-Topic: Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (OMNI)
Thread-Index: AdamGxsTxD3hGdlTThaXSslc4Lj72w==
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 13:29:34 +0000
Message-ID: <093fce506718470bb147e2eefbf02b42@boeing.com>
Accept-Language: en-US
Content-Language: en-US
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
x-originating-ip: [137.137.12.6]
x-tm-snts-smtp: AF8875D1C1BDA5B4F8E01908E72836CA73FA1955059507AF52FB7C377784F48B2000:8
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/yDGmOPfz2TqTG4brWqW6W5RH_i8>
X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" <ipv6.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ipv6>, <mailto:ipv6-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipv6/>
List-Post: <mailto:ipv6@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ipv6-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6>, <mailto:ipv6-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 13:29:50 -0000
HI Bob, > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob Hinden [mailto:bob.hinden@gmail.com] > Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2020 4:02 PM > To: Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> > Cc: Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>; Manfredi (US), Albert E <albert.e.manfredi@boeing.com>; IPv6 List <ipv6@ietf.org>; Ole > Trøan <otroan@employees.org>; atn@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [atn] [EXTERNAL] Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (OMNI) > > Fred, > > > On Oct 17, 2020, at 10:00 AM, Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> wrote: > > > > Hi Bob, > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Bob Hinden [mailto:bob.hinden@gmail.com] > >> Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2020 9:47 AM > >> To: Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> > >> Cc: Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>; Manfredi (US), Albert E <albert.e.manfredi@boeing.com>; IPv6 List <ipv6@ietf.org>; > Ole > >> Trøan <otroan@employees.org>; atn@ietf.org > >> Subject: Re: [atn] [EXTERNAL] Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (OMNI) > >> > >> Fred, > >> > >>> On Oct 17, 2020, at 9:01 AM, Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> wrote: > >>> > >>> Bob, it looks like our notes crossed at approximately the same time, but I would say > >>> the same thing to you that I just said to Bert - we will want all four of LLAs (for the > >>> control plane), SLAs (for the OAL) and ULAs/GUAs (for end-system addressing). > >> > >> I think we are saying you are asking for too much. > > > > The ask is to bring SLAs off mothballs and back into service - it would be a good use > > of an otherwise wasted space. > > There are very good reasons why SLA were deprecated, I don’t see a reason to change that. ULAs are intended to replace the use of > SLAs. OMNI Is a good reason to re-instate SLAs. OMNI will also want to use ULAs, but for other and non-overlapping purposes. > >>> About your scale calculations, there will be far more terrestrial vehicles, urban > >>> air mobility vehicles, drones, pedestrians etc. than there are the number of > >>> aircraft currently worldwide. But, scale is just one dimension of the problem > >>> space and the more important dimension is *function*. > >> > >> Where is the problem statement for this? > > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking/ > > That is interesting, but I don’t see any references to that in the omni draft, or any mention at all of ipwave. Nor does the ipwave > document reference your omni draft. True that the OMNI draft does not yet reference ipwave (will fix in the next version). But, draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking heavily cites OMNI. > >> This is far beyond what was I understood was called for in the OMNI liaison letter > >> (https://datatracker.ietf.org/liaison/1676/ ) that we thought the OMNI draft was focused on. The liaison letter talks about aircraft, > not > >> vehicles, drones, pedestrians, etc. > >> > >> I read what you are saying is a mobility solution for everything. > > > > What we have been designing for the aircraft domain appears to be a good fit > > for other mobility domains as well, with the above draft as evidence. I believe > > we can satisfy the aircraft in the near term while still allowing for more > > general-purpose mobility applicability. > > That is far from clear to me. To me you have a solution, that changes a lot of things in IPv6, and you are claiming it solves all IP mobility > problems. Please excuse my skepticism, I can’t even tell if it solves the aircraft domain. Let me know what I can do to make it more clear. Thanks - Fred > Bob > > > > > > Thanks - Fred > > > >> Bob > >> > >> > >>> > >>> Thanks - Fred > >>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: atn [mailto:atn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Bob Hinden > >>>> Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2020 8:52 AM > >>>> To: Manfredi (US), Albert E <albert.e.manfredi@boeing.com> > >>>> Cc: IPv6 List <ipv6@ietf.org>; Ole Trøan <otroan@employees.org>; Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>; atn@ietf.org > >>>> Subject: Re: [atn] [EXTERNAL] Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (OMNI) > >>>> > >>>> Bert, > >>>> > >>>>> On Oct 16, 2020, at 2:47 PM, Manfredi (US), Albert E <albert.e.manfredi@boeing.com> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> From: ipv6 <ipv6-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Ole Troan > >>>>> > >>>>>> I would challenge you to make OMNI entirely free from semantic addresses. That would also help the working group > understand > >>>> what benefits semantic addresses bring to OMNI. And what the tradeoffs would be. > >>>>> > >>>>> I think it's a matter of speed and simplicity, no? You avoid that extra protocol, to assign addresses. Same idea as embedding the > >> MAC > >>>> into the IPv6 address. But it's true that the IETF likes to stay away from semantic addresses. > >>>>> > >>>>> The path of least resistance, from all the back and forth, as of now, seems to be to either use ULAs, or to request a new /10 for > >> this > >>>> new purpose. > >>>> > >>>> I did some searching, found that there are currently about 500K aircraft of all types (general aviation, commercial, military, etc.). > >>>> Allocating a /10 seems excessive to me for this even with a lot of growth. > >>>> > >>>> Using ULAs would be fine. This might even be a good justification to use the other half of the ULA space as I suspect the ICAO > >> could > >>>> be an allocation authority. > >>>> > >>>> Bob > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >
- Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (OMNI) Templin (US), Fred L
- RE: Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [atn] Embedding IP information in an IPv6 add… Robert Moskowitz
- Re: [atn] Embedding IP information in an IPv6 add… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [atn] Embedding IP information in an IPv6 add… Fred Baker
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: [atn] Embedding IP information… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: [atn] Embedding IP information… Mark Smith
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: [atn] Embedding IP information… Templin (US), Fred L
- RE: [atn] [EXTERNAL] Re: Embedding IP information… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: [atn] Embedding IP information… Mark Smith
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: [atn] Embedding IP information… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [atn] [EXTERNAL] Re: Embedding IP information… 神明達哉
- RE: [atn] [EXTERNAL] Re: Embedding IP information… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [atn] [EXTERNAL] Re: Embedding IP information… Bob Hinden
- Re: [atn] [EXTERNAL] Re: Embedding IP information… otroan
- RE: [atn] [EXTERNAL] Re: Embedding IP information… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: [atn] Embedding IP information… Fernando Gont
- Re: Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (… Fernando Gont
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Embedding IP information in an… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [atn] [EXTERNAL] Re: Embedding IP information… otroan
- RE: [atn] [EXTERNAL] Re: Embedding IP information… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [atn] [EXTERNAL] Re: Embedding IP information… 神明達哉
- Re: Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Embedding IP information in an… Philip Homburg
- Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Embedding IP information in an… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (… Templin (US), Fred L
- RE: [atn] [EXTERNAL] Re: Embedding IP information… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [atn] [EXTERNAL] Re: Embedding IP information… Philip Homburg
- RE: [atn] [EXTERNAL] Re: Embedding IP information… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [atn] [EXTERNAL] Re: Embedding IP information… otroan
- RE: [atn] [EXTERNAL] Re: Embedding IP information… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [atn] [EXTERNAL] Re: Embedding IP information… otroan
- Re: Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (… Bob Hinden
- Re: Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (… Bob Hinden
- Re: Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (… Bob Hinden
- Re: Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (… Bob Hinden
- Re: Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (… Templin (US), Fred L
- RE: Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (… Templin (US), Fred L
- RE: Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (… Bob Hinden
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Embedding IP information in an… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [EXTERNAL] Embedding IP information in an IPv… Bob Hinden
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Embedding IP information in an IPv… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [atn] [EXTERNAL] Re: Embedding IP information… Philip Homburg
- Re: Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (… Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (… Ted Hardie
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Embedding IP information in an… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Embedding IP information in an… Ole Troan
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Embedding IP information in an… Manfredi (US), Albert E
- Re: [EXTERNAL] Embedding IP information in an IPv… Bob Hinden
- Re: Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (… Templin (US), Fred L
- RE: [atn] [EXTERNAL] Embedding IP information in … Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [atn] [EXTERNAL] Embedding IP information in … Bob Hinden
- RE: [atn] [EXTERNAL] Embedding IP information in … Templin (US), Fred L
- RE: [atn] [EXTERNAL] Embedding IP information in … Vasilenko Eduard
- RE: Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [atn] [EXTERNAL] Embedding IP information in … Bob Hinden
- Re: Starlink --- "simpler than IPv6" Templin (US), Fred L
- RE: Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: Starlink --- "simpler than IPv6" Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: Starlink --- "simpler than IPv6" Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: Starlink --- "simpler than IPv6" Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: Starlink --- "simpler than IPv6" Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Starlink --- "simpler than IPv6" Alexandre Petrescu
- RE: Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (… Bob Hinden
- RE: Starlink --- "simpler than IPv6" Templin (US), Fred L
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Embedding IP information in an… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [atn] Embedding IP information in an IPv6 add… Michael Richardson
- RE: Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: Starlink --- "simpler than IPv6" Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: Starlink --- "simpler than IPv6" Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (… Philip Homburg
- Re: Starlink --- "simpler than IPv6" Alexandre Petrescu
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Starlink --- "simpler than IPv… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: Starlink --- "simpler than IPv6" Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: Starlink --- "simpler than IPv6" Bob Hinden
- Re: [atn] Embedding IP information in an IPv6 add… Bob Hinden
- Re: Embedding IP information in an IPv6 address (… Michael Richardson
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: [atn] Embedding IP information… Templin (US), Fred L
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Embedding IP information in an… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Embedding IP information in an… Philip Homburg
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Embedding IP information in an… Templin (US), Fred L
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Embedding IP information in an… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: Starlink --- "simpler than IPv6" Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: Starlink --- "simpler than IPv6" Bob Hinden
- Re: Starlink --- "simpler than IPv6" Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Starlink --- "simpler than IPv6" Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Starlink --- "simpler than IPv6" Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Starlink --- "simpler than IPv6" Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Starlink --- "simpler than IPv6" Bob Hinden
- Re: [EXTERNAL] Embedding IP information in an IPv… Bob Hinden
- Re: Starlink --- "simpler than IPv6" Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: Starlink --- "simpler than IPv6" Bob Hinden
- Re: Starlink --- "simpler than IPv6" Alexandre Petrescu