Re: Size of CR in CRH
Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> Tue, 19 May 2020 21:20 UTC
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Subject: Re: Size of CR in CRH
To: "Templin (US), Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>, Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>
Cc: 6man <6man@ietf.org>
References: <DM6PR05MB6348E9AD1E088792C2F10BB4AEBF0@DM6PR05MB6348.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <8CC3F837-B4D6-4570-AF2F-37041839F391@employees.org> <21E9A957-1A31-4A11-8E78-5F7E382866D4@juniper.net> <CAOj+MMEONA5OtWz9Y7pTt4WyVsb+7-_wEKPVryyHLncHG6ew6g@mail.gmail.com> <CALx6S35fPrnh6UtpPYmQ6Yew6D2QVMvYTdp0AaGr8jYhGNKk3A@mail.gmail.com> <CAOj+MMH0Q6ASmjPdmgNB2LHDhvCL2u2DLB9SBRLnJnCD3EbA4w@mail.gmail.com> <CAO42Z2wke4Lw44zdE0G9CJq3rXh69jsxjO5=RTcCv9EXdNOp5A@mail.gmail.com> <BC6A6354-BAB5-4CE0-ABEB-73B4C88E149A@gmail.com> <a2bb7b9df11949cc8a82184d8800bd32@boeing.com> <FC9DA088-287C-4653-843E-BBCB8A235CC7@gmail.com> <7824db15e87d4547ada0628891442049@boeing.com>
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 09:20:07 +1200
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On 20-May-20 02:22, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > Bob, my estimate of scale may have been a bit overblown; there are only 7 billion > people on the planet so "countless billions" of routers may still be a long way off. > That said, about a routing protocol I believe we can get what we need out of > standard BGP as long as the routers don't move around very much. But when they do move around quite a lot, and frequently go up and down, it seems to me that you are in the area that RPL was designed for, and everything is different from BGP. Brian > Thanks - Fred > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Bob Hinden [mailto:bob.hinden@gmail.com] >> Sent: Monday, May 18, 2020 10:47 PM >> To: Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> >> Cc: Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>; Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>; 6man <6man@ietf.org> >> Subject: Re: Size of CR in CRH >> >> Fred, >> >>> On May 18, 2020, at 8:53 PM, Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> wrote: >>> >>> Bob, I am interested in environments where there are potentially countless billions of >>> routers. The mobile host is a 20th century archetype; the archetype for the 21st century >>> is mobile *routers*. And yes, these can show up as hops in a source route. >> >> I think source routes will be the least of your problem with this. For example, designing a routing protocol to work at this scale will be >> a problem. >> >> Bob >> >> >>> >>> Thanks - Fred >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: ipv6 [mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Bob Hinden >>>> Sent: Monday, May 18, 2020 4:08 PM >>>> To: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com> >>>> Cc: 6man <6man@ietf.org>; Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com> >>>> Subject: Size of CR in CRH >>>> >>>> [Was Adoption call criteria for CRH? [was: Re: CRH and RH0] ] >>>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> With no hats on: >>>> >>>>> On May 18, 2020, at 2:37 PM, Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> I would prefer CR had a singe size of 24 bits, as that would seem to >>>>> me to be the Goldilocks size for local network use (16 million >>>>> values), and per RFC 5505, "Anything that can be configured can be >>>>> misconfigured.". >>>>> >>>>> However I don't know enough about ASICs to judge whether or not 24 >>>>> bits could be acceptably accommodated for all cases, so I accept 2 >>>>> sizes, 16 and 32 bits. >>>> >>>> I also prefer a single size (and only one SR header definition). If it’s 16-bits, that would allow 64K routers in one CRH domain >> assuming >>>> it needs to uniquely identify each router, if there is more than 64K routers, then it only needs to identify the routers that are >> serving >>>> as hops in the source route. >>>> >>>> As you note 24 bits is better, but may not align as well. Or then 32-bits. >>>> >>>> Bob >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>>> *C* No mention what happens when node in the SID list is down ... modern networks do not tolerate outages required to signal >> all >>>> the way to the ingress to redo computation and start repair from there. This is BAD NETWORK DESIGN. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> This problem exists with any source routing, and has existed for many >>>>> decades in IPv6, IPv4, MPLS and Token Ring source routing. ICMPv6, >>>>> routing protocol signalling, BFD, etc. are all existing solutions to >>>>> this problem. >>>>> >>>>>> *D* Separation of destination actions into Destination Options Header. For some it may be a plus - for me this is minus. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> RFC8200 compliance. >>>>> >>>>> Separating hop-by-hop and destination option processing is good design >>>>> because forwarding needs to be as simple and as fast as possible. >>>>> >>>>> Complex packet handling should be left to End-hosts because they're >>>>> only performing actions for themselves, so the cost of complex >>>>> processing is limited to the end-host that is exclusively benefiting >>>>> from it. >>>>> >>>>> Complex packet handing in the network spreads the complexity costs to >>>>> all end-hosts attached to the network, even those that don't and may >>>>> never benefit from it. >>>>> >>>>>> *E* Unlike say SRH RFC this draft does not even mention once that to impose CRH packets should be encapsulated. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> While I think it is implicit in RFC8200, it probably should be >>>>> explicitly mentioned with a reference to RFC 2473, which shows how to >>>>> add new information through EHs to an existing packet via tunnel >>>>> encapsulation. >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> Mark. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Thx, >>>>>> R. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, May 18, 2020 at 4:26 PM Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 1:12 PM Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> John, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> May I add one more perspective to this. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 6man just standardized SRH. Why SRH content can not be filled by controller and used for the very same purpose as authors >>>> intend to use CRH for ? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Oh one may say there is no compression there ... If so I recommend to take a look at uSID and vSID proposals. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Robert, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I took a look at these proposals. It's very obvious that the format of CRH is significantly simpler than either of these and is >> simpler >>>> than SRH as well. Complexity in protocol format correlates to how amenable the protocol is to feaible implementation (in HW and >> SW), >>>> how well it can be secured, and how efficient in terms of wire overhead and processing overhead. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It is interesting to note that figure Figure 3 in draft-decraene-spring-srv6-vlsid-03 would be identical to Figure 1 in draft-bonica- >>>> 6man-comp-rtg-hdr-22 if the Last Entry, Flags, Tag, and TLVs fields were removed. Since these fields aren't used in the common >> case, >>>> they are easily compressed by simply removing them. So the material difference between the formats is how the length of SIDs is >>>> determined. In CRH this is explicit in the routing type, there is one type for 16-bit SID format and one type for 32-bit format.. >> AFAICT in >>>> vSID the SID length is more like a negotiated parameter that per destination address that uses the same routing type as SRH. While >>>> the vSID method might be more flexible and allow arbitrary SID lengths, it leads to more complexity since the routing header can >> no >>>> longer be parsed without external information. For instance, if a management device snoops packets in the path it wouldn't be >> able to >>>> parse the SID list without participating in the protocol that distributes the length information. Similarly, if a legacy SRH receiver >> receives >>>> a vSID header it seems like it would parse it incorrectly. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In any case, I don't see why the vSID and CRH proposals couldn't be unified or why SR wouldn't be able to use CRH to convey >>>> compressed SIDs. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Tom >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Is it in good interest of anyone deploying segment routing to have to deal with N different non interoperable headers ? Does >> it >>>> make anyone's life easier ? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Kind regards, >>>>>>>> Robert. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> PS. So my own side observation lead me to believe it is not about "too early to ask for adoption" ... it is actually "way too late" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 10:01 PM John Scudder <jgs=40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I’m a little confused about this conversation and I’d like to ask the chairs for clarification. My actual questions are at the end >> of >>>> this long(ish) message, and can be summarized as (1) does 6man require consent from SPRING before defining routing headers, >> and >>>> (2) what criteria are the chairs using to decide when an adoption call is OK? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> It seems to me there are at least two, only vaguely related, conversations going on. One of them is a debate about the >>>> assertion that 6man can’t even consider taking up CRH unless SPRING approves it. The other is a more free-wheeling line of >>>> questioning about “what is CRH for anyway”? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I presume both of these relate to Ron’s request for an adoption call. Here’s what the minutes from the interim have: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Bob: Thank you Ron. I think it's too early for adoption call. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Ron: What is needed to get to adoption call. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Bob: I can't answer right now. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Ron: Can I ask on list? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Bob: OK. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Ole: Related to what's going on in spring. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Too bad we have no audio recording, but that’s not too far from my recollection. Anyway, I don’t think I’ve seen this >> answered >>>> on list yet, so I’m asking again. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Regarding the SPRING-related process stuff: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I have quite a bit of history with how SPRING was chartered; I was one of the original co-chairs and helped write the charter, >>>> god help me. I can tell you for certain there was no intent that SPRING should have exclusive ownership of source routing in the >> IETF, >>>> the name isn’t a power-grab, it’s a clever backronym, as we do in the IETF. If one entity in the IETF were to take charge of all source >>>> routing, that sounds more like a new area than a WG. But don’t take my word for it, go read the various iterations of the charter. As >>>> anyone who’s looked at the Segment Routing document set can tell, Segment Routing is one, very specific, way of doing source >>>> routing. As Ketan and others have pointed out, it’s a pile of architecture plus the bits and pieces to instantiate that architecture. >> That is >>>> fine, but the idea that merely because a technology might be used to instantiate part of that architecture, it’s owned by SPRING, is >>>> overreach. Just because a sandwich is a filling between two pieces of starch, doesn’t mean every filling between two pieces of >> starch >>>> is a sandwich. [1] >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> But at any rate, the question for the chairs is: do you think 6man needs SPRING’s permission in order to consider adopting >>>> CRH? Does 6man need permission from SPRING for all routing headers, or just some, and if it’s just some, what characterizes >> them? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Regarding the more general “what is CRH for anyway” stuff: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> This seems to me to be exactly the kind of discussion one would normally have in the context of an adoption call. Why is it >> not >>>> being had in that context? To rewind back to the interim, if it’s still “too early for adoption call”, what has to happen for it not to be >> too >>>> early? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> —John >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> [1] https://cuberule.com >>>>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >>>>>>>>> ipv6@ietf.org >>>>>>>>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >>>>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >>>>>>>> ipv6@ietf.org >>>>>>>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >>>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> >>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >>>>>> ipv6@ietf.org >>>>>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- >
- Re: Size of CR in CRH Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Size of CR in CRH Erik Kline
- Re: Size of CR in CRH Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Size of CR in CRH Brian E Carpenter
- CRH and RH0 Darren Dukes (ddukes)
- RE: CRH and RH0 Ron Bonica
- Re: CRH and RH0 Darren Dukes (ddukes)
- Re: CRH and RH0 Bob Hinden
- RE: CRH and RH0 Ron Bonica
- Re: CRH and RH0 otroan
- RE: CRH and RH0 Ron Bonica
- Re: CRH and RH0 otroan
- RE: CRH and RH0 Ron Bonica
- Re: CRH and RH0 otroan
- RE: CRH and RH0 Ron Bonica
- Re: CRH and RH0 Bob Hinden
- RE: CRH and RH0 Ron Bonica
- RE: CRH and RH0 Pengshuping (Peng Shuping)
- Re: CRH and RH0 Tom Herbert
- Re: CRH and RH0 Robert Raszuk
- RE: CRH and RH0 Ron Bonica
- Re: CRH and RH0 Robert Raszuk
- RE: CRH and RH0 Ron Bonica
- RE: CRH and RH0 Ron Bonica
- RE: CRH and RH0 Ron Bonica
- Re: CRH and RH0 Robert Raszuk
- RE: CRH and RH0 Ron Bonica
- Re: CRH and RH0 Robert Raszuk
- RE: CRH and RH0 Ron Bonica
- Re: CRH and RH0 Stewart Bryant
- Re: CRH and RH0 Bob Hinden
- RE: CRH and RH0 Ron Bonica
- Re: CRH and RH0 Tom Herbert
- Re: CRH and RH0 Ole Troan
- Re: CRH and RH0 Darren Dukes (ddukes)
- RE: CRH and RH0 Ron Bonica
- Re: CRH and RH0 Bob Hinden
- RE: CRH and RH0 Ron Bonica
- RE: CRH and RH0 Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)
- RE: CRH and RH0 Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)
- Re: CRH and RH0 otroan
- RE: CRH and RH0 Ron Bonica
- Re: CRH and RH0 Darren Dukes (ddukes)
- Re: CRH and RH0 Tom Herbert
- Re: CRH and RH0 Erik Kline
- RE: CRH and RH0 Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)
- RE: CRH and RH0 Ron Bonica
- RE: CRH and RH0 Ron Bonica
- Re: CRH and RH0 Darren Dukes (ddukes)
- RE: CRH and RH0 Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)
- RE: CRH and RH0 Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)
- RE: CRH and RH0 Ron Bonica
- Adoption call criteria for CRH? [was: Re: CRH and… John Scudder
- Re: CRH and RH0 Mark Smith
- Re: Adoption call criteria for CRH? [was: Re: CRH… Robert Raszuk
- Re: CRH and RH0 Robert Raszuk
- RE: CRH and RH0 Ron Bonica
- RE: CRH and RH0 Ron Bonica
- Re: CRH and RH0 Gyan Mishra
- Re: Adoption call criteria for CRH? [was: Re: CRH… S Moonesamy
- Re: Adoption call criteria for CRH? [was: Re: CRH… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Adoption call criteria for CRH? [was: Re: CRH… Darren Dukes (ddukes)
- Re: Adoption call criteria for CRH? [was: Re: CRH… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: CRH and RH0 Darren Dukes (ddukes)
- Re: Adoption call criteria for CRH? [was: Re: CRH… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Adoption call criteria for CRH? [was: Re: CRH… John Scudder
- Re: Adoption call criteria for CRH? [was: Re: CRH… Bob Hinden
- Re: Adoption call criteria for CRH? [was: Re: CRH… Bob Hinden
- Re: Adoption call criteria for CRH? [was: Re: CRH… S Moonesamy
- Re: CRH and RH0 Tom Herbert
- RE: CRH and RH0 Ron Bonica
- RE: Adoption call criteria for CRH? [was: Re: CRH… Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)
- RE: Adoption call criteria for CRH? [was: Re: CRH… Pengshuping (Peng Shuping)
- Re: Adoption call criteria for CRH? [was: Re: CRH… Darren Dukes (ddukes)
- RE: CRH and RH0 Chengli (Cheng Li)
- RE: Adoption call criteria for CRH? [was: Re: CRH… Chengli (Cheng Li)
- Re: CRH and RH0 Robert Raszuk
- Re: CRH and RH0 Stewart Bryant
- Re: CRH and RH0 Robert Raszuk
- Re: CRH and RH0 Stewart Bryant
- Re: Adoption call criteria for CRH? [was: Re: CRH… Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: Adoption call criteria for CRH? [was: Re: CRH… Voyer, Daniel
- Re: Adoption call criteria for CRH? [was: Re: CRH… 刘毅松
- 答复: Adoption call criteria for CRH? [was: Re: CRH… qinfengwei
- Re: Adoption call criteria for CRH? [was: Re: CRH… Zafar Ali (zali)
- RE: Adoption call criteria for CRH? [was: Re: CRH… Andrew Alston
- Re: Adoption call criteria for CRH? [was: Re: CRH… Tom Herbert
- RE: Adoption call criteria for CRH? [was: Re: CRH… Ron Bonica
- Re: Adoption call criteria for CRH? [was: Re: CRH… Nick Hilliard
- Re: Adoption call criteria for CRH? [was: Re: CRH… Zafar Ali (zali)
- Re: [spring] Adoption call criteria for CRH? [was… Robert Raszuk
- Re: Adoption call criteria for CRH? [was: Re: CRH… John Scudder
- Re: Adoption call criteria for CRH? [was: Re: CRH… Fernando Gont
- Shorter SIDs in SR over IPv6 (Re: Adoption call c… Greg Mirsky
- Re: Adoption call criteria for CRH? [was: Re: CRH… Zafar Ali (zali)
- Re: Adoption call criteria for CRH? [was: Re: CRH… John Scudder
- Re: Adoption call criteria for CRH? [was: Re: CRH… Tom Herbert
- Re: Adoption call criteria for CRH? [was: Re: CRH… Robert Raszuk
- Re: Adoption call criteria for CRH? [was: Re: CRH… Mark Smith
- Re: Adoption call criteria for CRH? [was: Re: CRH… Tom Herbert
- Re: Adoption call criteria for CRH? [was: Re: CRH… Robert Raszuk
- Size of CR in CRH Bob Hinden
- RE: Size of CR in CRH Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: Size of CR in CRH Bob Hinden
- RE: Size of CR in CRH Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: Size of CR in CRH Tom Herbert
- Re: Size of CR in CRH Nick Hilliard
- RE: Size of CR in CRH Ron Bonica
- RE: Size of CR in CRH Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: Size of CR in CRH Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Size of CR in CRH Nick Hilliard
- Re: Size of CR in CRH Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Size of CR in CRH Bob Hinden
- RE: Size of CR in CRH Wang, Weibin (NSB - CN/Shanghai)
- RE: Size of CR in CRH Andrew Alston
- Re: Size of CR in CRH otroan
- RE: Size of CR in CRH Ron Bonica
- Re: Size of CR in CRH Bob Hinden
- Re: Size of CR in CRH Uma Chunduri
- RE: Size of CR in CRH Ron Bonica
- Re: Size of CR in CRH Tom Herbert
- RE: Size of CR in CRH Ron Bonica
- Re: Size of CR in CRH Tom Herbert
- RE: Size of CR in CRH Ron Bonica
- Re: Size of CR in CRH Ole Troan
- Re: Size of CR in CRH Mark Smith
- Re: Size of CR in CRH Fred Baker
- RE: Size of CR in CRH Ron Bonica
- Re: Size of CR in CRH Tom Herbert
- RE: Size of CR in CRH Robert Raszuk
- Re: Size of CR in CRH Bob Hinden
- On adddress sizing (was: Re: Size of CR in CRH) Toerless Eckert
- Re: Size of CR in CRH Toerless Eckert
- RE: Size of CR in CRH Ron Bonica
- RE: Size of CR in CRH Chengli (Cheng Li)
- RE: Size of CR in CRH Ron Bonica
- Re: Size of CR in CRH Robert Raszuk
- Re: Size of CR in CRH Nick Hilliard
- RE: Size of CR in CRH Ron Bonica
- RE: Size of CR in CRH Ron Bonica
- Re: Size of CR in CRH Zafar Ali (zali)
- Re: Size of CR in CRH Robert Raszuk
- Re: Size of CR in CRH Tom Herbert
- RE: Size of CR in CRH Ron Bonica
- RE: Size of CR in CRH Ron Bonica
- Re: Size of CR in CRH Robert Raszuk
- RE: Size of CR in CRH Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)
- RE: Size of CR in CRH Ron Bonica
- Re: Size of CR in CRH Robert Raszuk
- RE: Size of CR in CRH Ron Bonica
- Re: Size of CR in CRH Tom Herbert
- Re: Size of CR in CRH Robert Raszuk
- Re: Size of CR in CRH Zafar Ali (zali)
- RE: Size of CR in CRH Ron Bonica
- Re: Size of CR in CRH Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Size of CR in CRH Zafar Ali (zali)
- Re: Size of CR in CRH Bob Hinden
- RE: Size of CR in CRH Ron Bonica
- RE: Size of CR in CRH Ron Bonica
- Re: Size of CR in CRH Robert Raszuk
- Re: Size of CR in CRH Robert Raszuk
- Re: Size of CR in CRH Joel M. Halpern
- RE: Size of CR in CRH Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)
- Re: Size of CR in CRH Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Size of CR in CRH Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Size of CR in CRH Gyan Mishra
- Re: Size of CR in CRH Gyan Mishra
- RE: Size of CR in CRH Wang, Weibin (NSB - CN/Shanghai)
- RE: Size of CR in CRH Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)