Re: [irs-discuss] IRS Problem Statement Posted

Susan Hares <susan.hares@huawei.com> Wed, 01 August 2012 23:22 UTC

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From: Susan Hares <susan.hares@huawei.com>
To: Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [irs-discuss] IRS Problem Statement Posted
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Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 23:20:55 +0000
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References: <CE39F5249064D946AA3535E63A014619656FB98703@EUSAACMS0703.eamcs.ericsson.se> <CC3C59B2.2275E%nitinb@juniper.net> <728F9B956B2C48439CA9294B1723B14623754A18@dfweml509-mbs.china.huawei.com> <CAG4d1rfmt1rDziTk7MV8E88=i=fA8SEKHrqHdBkkLyZFH-h+-g@mail.gmail.com> <728F9B956B2C48439CA9294B1723B146237553E6@dfweml509-mbs.china.huawei.com> <CAG4d1rcGWPMKo45o9qtAWQr-t3R5ixr5fDRy-p==YVFBOw10yg@mail.gmail.com>
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Cc: Thomas Nadeau <tnadeau@juniper.net>, Nitin Bahadur <nitinb@juniper.net>, James Kempf <james.kempf@ericsson.com>, "irs-discuss@ietf.org" <irs-discuss@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [irs-discuss] IRS Problem Statement Posted
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Alia:

I'm going to check with a colleague who has been doing lots of model work to see if he's got a better.  More later.

Sue 

-----Original Message-----
From: Alia Atlas [mailto:akatlas@gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2012 3:41 PM
To: Susan Hares
Cc: Nitin Bahadur; James Kempf; Thomas Nadeau; irs-discuss@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [irs-discuss] IRS Problem Statement Posted

Sue,

In this case, I was thinking of "translating" from a "higher
abstraction layer" to a "lower abstraction layer".

Do you have a better/different term to suggest?  I agree that clarity
of terminology is important.

Alia

On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 2:03 PM, Susan Hares <susan.hares@huawei.com>; wrote:
> Alia:
>
> +1 on abstraction + filters (abstract/detail) IRS fits at the routing control.
>
> The real question about translation is what the translation is doing.  Is it translating one thing to another at the same layer of abstraction (e.g., Spanish/English, Ascii/ebcdic) or is it doing abstraction/detail change.
>
> I define translation as the same layer of abstraction.  Some people suggest translation = abstract/detailing.  We first need a common way to talk about the difference.
>
> Sue
>
> By the way --- I'm thrilled about the pace of the discussion.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alia Atlas [mailto:akatlas@gmail.com]
> Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 6:40 PM
> To: Susan Hares
> Cc: Nitin Bahadur; James Kempf; Thomas Nadeau; irs-discuss@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [irs-discuss] IRS Problem Statement Posted
>
> Sue,
>
> I certainly agree that we want IRS to have the ability to express
> information at different abstraction layers and filtered on request.
>
> There may still be a gap between the "network OS abstractions" and IRS
> sub-interfaces; I'd be surprised if there weren't.  IRS is to provide
> the bottom-up control strings.
>
> IMHO, it's reasonable to have an entity that manages the translation.
> For instance, one doesn't need a PCE-equiv in every application - nor
> in every router; that might be an entity in between.
>
> The quantity of information is part of why explicit filtering and
> hopefully abstraction layers should be built into the data-models.
>
> Alia
>
> On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 9:24 PM, Susan Hares <susan.hares@huawei.com>; wrote:
>> Nitin:
>>
>> Exposing some network intelligence can either be done in detail or in some amount of summarization.
>> If you are doing detail, you have bandwidth issues. If you are doing summarization or opacity, you are talking about layers of information.
>>
>> Apps need to find out what they need to get. They do not need all the details - just the fact they can get from point A to Point B (or for multi-cast B/C/D). They need to where they can go to date other applications.  They need a match-maker for the application who determine where the applications shall flow.  Now, if they are smart - like people going out to eat - they pick several ways go to eat traffic.
>>
>> The network orchestration then serves to be the paths to the place to eat.  This can either be distributed or centralized.
>>
>> If we have an Interface to routing, it need to have a two-layer concept of exposing information.
>>
>> Sue Hares
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: irs-discuss-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:irs-discuss-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Nitin Bahadur
>> Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 3:33 PM
>> To: James Kempf; Thomas Nadeau; irs-discuss@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [irs-discuss] IRS Problem Statement Posted
>>
>> Hi James,
>>
>> This is not about splitting control plane and forwarding plane. It is about exposing network intelligence in the network elements to an external controller.
>> And it is about allowing an external controller to use that information for enabling network-aware apps. And it is about allowing apps to influence the
>> network element's RIB (not the FIB directly).
>>
>> Streaming is essential to allow for operations at scale...and avoid a request/response gated mechanism.
>>
>> Hope that helps.
>>
>> Thanks
>> Nitin
>>
>> On 7/30/12 3:11 PM, "James Kempf" <james.kempf@ericsson.com>; wrote:
>>
>> I don't understand why streaming is specified in this draft. And I don't understand why this draft isn't put in the Forces framework. Forces is a framework explicitedly designed for device to controller communication. Its major drawback it that it is a framework with a hole in the middle, in that there are no specified devices. This draft would fill that hole.
>>
>> I don't think it is necessary to have a problem statement for router state update. Forces has already established that splitting the control plane into a separate device is, in some cases, an attractive design option. So I think this should be submitted to the Forces working group, or, at least, recast in the Forces framework.
>>
>>                 jak
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: irs-discuss-bounces@ietf.org
>>> [mailto:irs-discuss-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Nadeau
>>> Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 11:18 AM
>>> To: irs-discuss@ietf.org
>>> Subject: [irs-discuss] IRS Problem Statement Posted
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Please review and discuss.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Tom, Alia, Ward
>>>
>>>
>>> http://lucidvision.com/draft-atlas-irs-problem-statement-00.txt
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> irs-discuss mailing list
>>> irs-discuss@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/irs-discuss
>>>
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