Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments

[Edward Crabbe <[e-mail]>]

It's not clear to me that IRS has 'tentacles' (;)) in the LFIB...

Is this the case?  And if so, I guess I'll repeat the question I asked
after Alia's presentation in the RTG meeting:  will there be a mechanism to
negotiate and specify encapsulation types as well as form FECs etc?

On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 11:21 AM, Shah, Himanshu <[e-mail]> wrote:

> *I will let Ed clarify on what he means by “controller” .*
>
> * *
>
> *But here is my view of “application”, “controller”, “use-case” etc etc, *
>
> * *
>
> *When an XaaS processes a request it takes into consideration of
> availability of the CPU, memory, application data, cost of power, etc. to
> instantiate a VM on some host machine.*
>
> *One additional resource taken into consideration is the availability
> and/or requirement of the network connectivity between the resources*
>
> *such as VM, application data, requester, etc.*
>
> * *
>
> *The provider of XaaS thingy is the application server.*
>
> *(Centralized) Network “Controller(s)”  knows current state of network
> infrastructure and (to be decided how much it) controls member network
> nodes using IRS.*
>
> *The “use case” here is to be able to dynamically create L2/L2.5/L3
> connectivity with specific TE characteristics between the (perhaps
> geographically dispersed) resource points.*
>
> * *
>
> *In hierarchical fashion:   Application server <- (application interface)
> -> Network Controller <- (IRS) -> Network Node*
>
> * *
>
> *As we heard at IETF, IRS has tentacles in network nodes from BGP
> policies, all the way down to FIBs/LFIBs/ACL.*
>
> * *
>
> *So we need use cases for which applications would require accessibility
> to –*
>
> *BGP Policies*
>
> *RIB*
>
> *LSDB ( I saw an email which talks about reducing IGP to link
> distribution protocol and running SPF in centralized network controller)*
>
> *LIB*
>
> *FIB*
>
> *ACL (this is perhaps obvious)*
>
> *Etc etc*
>
> * *
>
> *I broad brushed and simplified a lot here to express my view – not sure
> if this jives with others.*
>
> * *
>
> */Himanshu*
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> *From:* [e-mail] [mailto:[e-mail]]
> *On Behalf Of *Olen Stokes
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 15, 2012 1:30 PM
> *To:* Edward Crabbe; Alia Atlas
> *Cc:* David Lake (dlake); [e-mail]
>
> *Subject:* Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments****
>
> ** **
>
> Thanks.  Can you also give us what you mean by “controller”.  ****
>
> ** **
>
> Olen****
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* Edward Crabbe [mailto:[e-mail]]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 15, 2012 1:24 PM
> *To:* Alia Atlas
> *Cc:* David Lake (dlake); Olen Stokes; [e-mail]
> *Subject:* Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments****
>
> ** **
>
> s/wg/pre-BOF proto-wg :P/g  ****
>
> On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 10:22 AM, Edward Crabbe <[e-mail]> wrote:***
> *
>
> +1 Alia.  There's been a lot of confusion over this term.  Having gone a
> few rounds with folks on this one in other forums, I'll point out that what
> most people mean by application (myself included) is some set of control
> software (a scheduler, a path optimizer etc)  that provides instructions to
> the controller, which are in turn translated to the appropriate PDUs.****
>
> ** **
>
> Having 'end user' applications request/make changes to forwarding state
> without an intermediate broker/aggregator acting on their behalf sounds
> like a recipe for disaster for operational networks, or, as is more likely,
> a quick hike to the protocol grave yard (followed by a long grave-side
> party :P) for the wg.  ****
>
> ** **
>
> my 2c. ****
>
> ** **
>
> On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 8:48 AM, Alia Atlas <[e-mail]> wrote:****
>
> Hi David,
>
> We do need to clarify what is meant by an application.  I would not
> expect that real user-land applications would talk directly to routing
> devices via IRS.  I can see that going through an intermediary.  The
> IRS abstractions are unlikely to be as high-level as user-land
> applications would want and the security and policy issues would get
> exciting.
>
> Clarifying what applications are more in-scope initially is part of
> where use-cases will help.  Can you write up ones to
> categorize/describe your thoughts?
>
> Alia****
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 11:40 AM, David Lake (dlake) <[e-mail]>
> wrote:
> > As another newbie to this, I have some questions about "application
> vendors."
> >
> > Who is the target audience here ?   That will determine what
> functionality and abstraction of the network we need to expose to that
> "application."
> >
> > This presently appears to be a little confused - at least in my mind.
>  The draft talks very much as if the application we are addressing is an
> OSS/BSS system, essentially provisioning from the domain owner.
> >
> > However, linking this to the wider goals of SDN as voiced by
> customers/users at the first Open Network Summit, there appears to be a
> desire for cross-domain and user-land application integration.
> >
> > At this level - as an example giving a content cache the ability to
> ensure delivery of an HD video to an end user - the application will not be
> interested in the underlying topology of the network; it will  need to know
> that application X can be delivered with parameters Y between reading from
> the content store to delivery to the user's browser.   How the stream
> traverses the infrastructure is immaterial.
> >
> > Are we intending that IRS satisfies BOTH these requirements (i.e. for
> ALL applications ?), or should we be more prescriptive about which
> application space we are addressing ?
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > David
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [e-mail] [mailto:[e-mail]]
> On Behalf Of Alia Atlas
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 7:23 AM
> > To: Olen Stokes
> > Cc: [e-mail]
> > Subject: Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments
> >
> > I have not specifically heard from application vendors about this.
> > My current plan is that we focus on a Use-Cases draft and define within
> that some motivating use-cases that we agree are good first targets.  Those
> can drive which subset of functionality we focus on.
> >
> > More use-cases are, of course, quite welcome.  Posting them to the
> mailing list is a good first start.  Russ White is starting the general
> use-cases draft based on the three use-cases that he sent to the list.
> >
> > Alia
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 9:43 AM, Olen Stokes <
> [e-mail]> wrote:
> >> Are there applications vendors out there that already have specific
> requirements for what this " subset of the data-models for sub-interfaces"
>  should be?
> >>
> >> Olen
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: [e-mail]
> >> [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of Alia Atlas
> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 9:08 AM
> >> To: Shah, Himanshu
> >> Cc: Gert Grammel; [e-mail]; Lenny Giuliano; Thomas Nadeau;
> >> Alia Atlas; Scott Whyte
> >> Subject: Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments
> >>
> >> Hi Himanshu,
> >>
> >> Welcome.   I agree that IRS isn't going to spring into being fully
> >> formed - I expect that we'll focus on a subset of the data-models for
> sub-interfaces along with an associated protocol (whether that is a new one
> or extending an existing one).
> >>
> >> Alia
> >>
> >> On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 7:41 AM, Shah, Himanshu <[e-mail]>
> wrote:
> >>> Newbie to this discussions list and have read only a last couple of
> mails, so pardon the repeat if somebody has already raised the following as
> a concern.
> >>>
> >>> I realize we are early in IRS architecture definition but one thing to
> keep in mind is the user experience.
> >>> We need to make sure that exposed interface to
> >>> RIB/LFIB/FIB/IGPs/BGP/LSDBs etc etc  provide a consistent predictive
> action/response/events even when different implementations has varying
> capabilities.
> >>>
> >>> At the moment it seems like a wild wild west.
> >>> Perhaps IRS can be defined in phases starting with a simpler, limited
> version..
> >>>
> >>> Thanks,
> >>> himanshu
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: [e-mail]
> >>> [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of Alia Atlas
> >>> Sent: Monday, August 13, 2012 8:41 AM
> >>> To: Scott Whyte
> >>> Cc: Thomas Nadeau; Gert Grammel; Alia Atlas; Lenny Giuliano;
> >>> [e-mail]
> >>> Subject: Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments
> >>>
> >>> ...snip...
> >>>
> >>> On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 9:03 PM, Scott Whyte <[e-mail]>
> wrote:
> >>>> On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 5:16 PM, Alia Atlas <[e-mail]>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>> I do think it is important to have the RIB as an arbitration
> mechanism
> >>>>> on the device.   Russ's suggestion that for the RIB sub-interface,
> the
> >>>>> IRS agent might communicate logically to an IRS routing process
> >>>>> gives good semantics and interactions.  Obviously, implementations
> >>>>> may differ.
> >>>>
> >>>> As long as the arbitration mechanism is reconfigurable by the
> >>>> operator to whatever precedence they want, I agree.  Its not clear
> >>>> to me if various RIB implementations treat all proffered routes the
> >>>> same, nor if they store the same meta-data with all protocol sources.
> >>>> So there needs to be some way for the operator to leverage exposed
> >>>> protocol-specific optimizations, without conflict from the other
> >>>> routing processes, if they so desire.  OTOH if it can all be done
> >>>> via static routes, it seems much simpler. :)
> >>>
> >>> Clearly the IRS sub-interface for the RIB needs to introduce/define
> the different precedences; my assumption is that it would be per route with
> a well-defined small set of meta-data.  This is part of where having good
> use-cases will help us understand what behavior is necessary.  The static
>  routes do seem like a simpler case to start with.
> >>>
> >>> Alia
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> irs-discuss mailing list
> >>> [e-mail]
> >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/irs-discuss
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> irs-discuss mailing list
> >> [e-mail]
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/irs-discuss
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>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>