Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments

[Olen Stokes <[e-mail]>]

I understand that.  Sorry, I should have been more specific.  I am trying to understand if usage of the word "controller" on this list implies a reference to any existing description such as "Open Flow Controller".

Olen

From: Edward Crabbe [mailto:[e-mail]]
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 2:20 PM
To: Olen Stokes
Cc: Alia Atlas; David Lake (dlake); [e-mail]
Subject: Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments

The software (interacting with the 'applications' and) generating the actual PDUs understood by the NEs.

On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 10:30 AM, Olen Stokes <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
Thanks.  Can you also give us what you mean by "controller".

Olen

From: Edward Crabbe [mailto:[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>]
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 1:24 PM
To: Alia Atlas
Cc: David Lake (dlake); Olen Stokes; [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>

Subject: Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments

s/wg/pre-BOF proto-wg :P/g
On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 10:22 AM, Edward Crabbe <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
+1 Alia.  There's been a lot of confusion over this term.  Having gone a few rounds with folks on this one in other forums, I'll point out that what most people mean by application (myself included) is some set of control software (a scheduler, a path optimizer etc)  that provides instructions to the controller, which are in turn translated to the appropriate PDUs.

Having 'end user' applications request/make changes to forwarding state without an intermediate broker/aggregator acting on their behalf sounds like a recipe for disaster for operational networks, or, as is more likely, a quick hike to the protocol grave yard (followed by a long grave-side party :P) for the wg.

my 2c.

On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 8:48 AM, Alia Atlas <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
Hi David,

We do need to clarify what is meant by an application.  I would not
expect that real user-land applications would talk directly to routing
devices via IRS.  I can see that going through an intermediary.  The
IRS abstractions are unlikely to be as high-level as user-land
applications would want and the security and policy issues would get
exciting.

Clarifying what applications are more in-scope initially is part of
where use-cases will help.  Can you write up ones to
categorize/describe your thoughts?

Alia

On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 11:40 AM, David Lake (dlake) <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
> As another newbie to this, I have some questions about "application vendors."
>
> Who is the target audience here ?   That will determine what functionality and abstraction of the network we need to expose to that "application."
>
> This presently appears to be a little confused - at least in my mind.  The draft talks very much as if the application we are addressing is an OSS/BSS system, essentially provisioning from the domain owner.
>
> However, linking this to the wider goals of SDN as voiced by customers/users at the first Open Network Summit, there appears to be a desire for cross-domain and user-land application integration.
>
> At this level - as an example giving a content cache the ability to ensure delivery of an HD video to an end user - the application will not be interested in the underlying topology of the network; it will  need to know that application X can be delivered with parameters Y between reading from the content store to delivery to the user's browser.   How the stream traverses the infrastructure is immaterial.
>
> Are we intending that IRS satisfies BOTH these requirements (i.e. for ALL applications ?), or should we be more prescriptive about which application space we are addressing ?
>
> Thanks
>
> David
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]> [mailto:[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>] On Behalf Of Alia Atlas
> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 7:23 AM
> To: Olen Stokes
> Cc: [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>
> Subject: Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments
>
> I have not specifically heard from application vendors about this.
> My current plan is that we focus on a Use-Cases draft and define within that some motivating use-cases that we agree are good first targets.  Those can drive which subset of functionality we focus on.
>
> More use-cases are, of course, quite welcome.  Posting them to the mailing list is a good first start.  Russ White is starting the general use-cases draft based on the three use-cases that he sent to the list.
>
> Alia
>
> On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 9:43 AM, Olen Stokes <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
>> Are there applications vendors out there that already have specific requirements for what this " subset of the data-models for sub-interfaces"  should be?
>>
>> Olen
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>
>> [mailto:[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>] On Behalf Of Alia Atlas
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 9:08 AM
>> To: Shah, Himanshu
>> Cc: Gert Grammel; [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>; Lenny Giuliano; Thomas Nadeau;
>> Alia Atlas; Scott Whyte
>> Subject: Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments
>>
>> Hi Himanshu,
>>
>> Welcome.   I agree that IRS isn't going to spring into being fully
>> formed - I expect that we'll focus on a subset of the data-models for sub-interfaces along with an associated protocol (whether that is a new one or extending an existing one).
>>
>> Alia
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 7:41 AM, Shah, Himanshu <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
>>> Newbie to this discussions list and have read only a last couple of mails, so pardon the repeat if somebody has already raised the following as a concern.
>>>
>>> I realize we are early in IRS architecture definition but one thing to keep in mind is the user experience.
>>> We need to make sure that exposed interface to
>>> RIB/LFIB/FIB/IGPs/BGP/LSDBs etc etc  provide a consistent predictive action/response/events even when different implementations has varying capabilities.
>>>
>>> At the moment it seems like a wild wild west.
>>> Perhaps IRS can be defined in phases starting with a simpler, limited version..
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> himanshu
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>
>>> [mailto:[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>] On Behalf Of Alia Atlas
>>> Sent: Monday, August 13, 2012 8:41 AM
>>> To: Scott Whyte
>>> Cc: Thomas Nadeau; Gert Grammel; Alia Atlas; Lenny Giuliano;
>>> [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>
>>> Subject: Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments
>>>
>>> ...snip...
>>>
>>> On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 9:03 PM, Scott Whyte <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
>>>> On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 5:16 PM, Alia Atlas <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> I do think it is important to have the RIB as an arbitration mechanism
>>>>> on the device.   Russ's suggestion that for the RIB sub-interface, the
>>>>> IRS agent might communicate logically to an IRS routing process
>>>>> gives good semantics and interactions.  Obviously, implementations
>>>>> may differ.
>>>>
>>>> As long as the arbitration mechanism is reconfigurable by the
>>>> operator to whatever precedence they want, I agree.  Its not clear
>>>> to me if various RIB implementations treat all proffered routes the
>>>> same, nor if they store the same meta-data with all protocol sources.
>>>> So there needs to be some way for the operator to leverage exposed
>>>> protocol-specific optimizations, without conflict from the other
>>>> routing processes, if they so desire.  OTOH if it can all be done
>>>> via static routes, it seems much simpler. :)
>>>
>>> Clearly the IRS sub-interface for the RIB needs to introduce/define the different precedences; my assumption is that it would be per route with a well-defined small set of meta-data.  This is part of where having good use-cases will help us understand what behavior is necessary.  The static  routes do seem like a simpler case to start with.
>>>
>>> Alia
>>> _______________________________________________
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