Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments
Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com> Wed, 15 August 2012 22:04 UTC
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References: <812700A304640D4292205D5E83FC59E1061C211D@p-embx01-eq.jnpr.net> <CAG=JvvjYk_E6+Qdidyyjc5oDss9HeA2aq2pt5ciQeX06fuiWsQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAG4d1reLL2_4KRb6yseJK9WTB47YzumMBGdu+UwcOWXxmE0M8Q@mail.gmail.com> <CAG=JvvjVhGsVcSzEFxDKKfNckQxgQiWeezWvwpcoAOSgOP--Nw@mail.gmail.com> <CAG4d1rd_p6x_+PsHWtsYU=oOCT-GnmnZNL+MHcJf4NEG5boP7A@mail.gmail.com> <B37E6A2CE5957F4E83C1D9845A0FFE38014A33BC4A@MDWEXGMB02.ciena.com> <CAG4d1reWGjUU-z=9Gx_MvetAWF6wM8oUMpQRc9hxOg1MU37X_w@mail.gmail.com> <A3C4E51A53661B4EBEE7C5F5E6FCDEB5025AB94FE6D2@USEXCHANGE.corp.extremenetworks.com> <CAG4d1rfD8_0WgzRqH-OVAxfn1RYNfY_ynwkcmqN3MBYyrn5TnQ@mail.gmail.com> <3512BB31280C39448A9880F61DD54CEB09C07E@xmb-aln-x09.cisco.com> <CAG4d1rcvk1RmRmrpCwiAGx9s0v3X9aPECdeF1Wz7WSuYwzdFKA@mail.gmail.com> <CACKN6JH8eiYty3QOZ+E5Nt0wO3nYn87yB3pKixJK-3dnaOXfLQ@mail.gmail.com> <CACKN6JFMZqOnHU=vEkx8WxwSLjg5MYY=-VoJ7uOt8SAzvbAT6Q@mail.gmail.com> <A3C4E51A53661B4EBEE7C5F5E6FCDEB5025AB94FE847@USEXCHANGE.corp.extremenetworks.com> <B37E6A2CE5957F4E83C1D9845A0FFE38014A33C0A0@MDWEXGMB02.ciena.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 18:04:40 -0400
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From: Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
To: "Shah, Himanshu" <hshah@ciena.com>
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Cc: "irs-discuss@ietf.org" <irs-discuss@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments
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I don't see IRS going below the RIB layer to FIB. Alia On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 2:21 PM, Shah, Himanshu <hshah@ciena.com> wrote: > I will let Ed clarify on what he means by “controller” . > > > > But here is my view of “application”, “controller”, “use-case” etc etc, > > > > When an XaaS processes a request it takes into consideration of availability > of the CPU, memory, application data, cost of power, etc. to instantiate a > VM on some host machine. > > One additional resource taken into consideration is the availability and/or > requirement of the network connectivity between the resources > > such as VM, application data, requester, etc. > > > > The provider of XaaS thingy is the application server. > > (Centralized) Network “Controller(s)” knows current state of network > infrastructure and (to be decided how much it) controls member network nodes > using IRS. > > The “use case” here is to be able to dynamically create L2/L2.5/L3 > connectivity with specific TE characteristics between the (perhaps > geographically dispersed) resource points. > > > > In hierarchical fashion: Application server <- (application interface) -> > Network Controller <- (IRS) -> Network Node > > > > As we heard at IETF, IRS has tentacles in network nodes from BGP policies, > all the way down to FIBs/LFIBs/ACL. > > > > So we need use cases for which applications would require accessibility to – > > BGP Policies > > RIB > > LSDB ( I saw an email which talks about reducing IGP to link distribution > protocol and running SPF in centralized network controller) > > LIB > > FIB > > ACL (this is perhaps obvious) > > Etc etc > > > > I broad brushed and simplified a lot here to express my view – not sure if > this jives with others. > > > > /Himanshu > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: irs-discuss-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:irs-discuss-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Olen Stokes > Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 1:30 PM > To: Edward Crabbe; Alia Atlas > Cc: David Lake (dlake); irs-discuss@ietf.org > > > Subject: Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments > > > > Thanks. Can you also give us what you mean by “controller”. > > > > Olen > > > > From: Edward Crabbe [mailto:edc@google.com] > Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 1:24 PM > To: Alia Atlas > Cc: David Lake (dlake); Olen Stokes; irs-discuss@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments > > > > s/wg/pre-BOF proto-wg :P/g > > On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 10:22 AM, Edward Crabbe <edc@google.com> wrote: > > +1 Alia. There's been a lot of confusion over this term. Having gone a few > rounds with folks on this one in other forums, I'll point out that what most > people mean by application (myself included) is some set of control software > (a scheduler, a path optimizer etc) that provides instructions to the > controller, which are in turn translated to the appropriate PDUs. > > > > Having 'end user' applications request/make changes to forwarding state > without an intermediate broker/aggregator acting on their behalf sounds like > a recipe for disaster for operational networks, or, as is more likely, a > quick hike to the protocol grave yard (followed by a long grave-side party > :P) for the wg. > > > > my 2c. > > > > On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 8:48 AM, Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi David, > > We do need to clarify what is meant by an application. I would not > expect that real user-land applications would talk directly to routing > devices via IRS. I can see that going through an intermediary. The > IRS abstractions are unlikely to be as high-level as user-land > applications would want and the security and policy issues would get > exciting. > > Clarifying what applications are more in-scope initially is part of > where use-cases will help. Can you write up ones to > categorize/describe your thoughts? > > Alia > > > On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 11:40 AM, David Lake (dlake) <dlake@cisco.com> > wrote: >> As another newbie to this, I have some questions about "application >> vendors." >> >> Who is the target audience here ? That will determine what functionality >> and abstraction of the network we need to expose to that "application." >> >> This presently appears to be a little confused - at least in my mind. The >> draft talks very much as if the application we are addressing is an OSS/BSS >> system, essentially provisioning from the domain owner. >> >> However, linking this to the wider goals of SDN as voiced by >> customers/users at the first Open Network Summit, there appears to be a >> desire for cross-domain and user-land application integration. >> >> At this level - as an example giving a content cache the ability to ensure >> delivery of an HD video to an end user - the application will not be >> interested in the underlying topology of the network; it will need to know >> that application X can be delivered with parameters Y between reading from >> the content store to delivery to the user's browser. How the stream >> traverses the infrastructure is immaterial. >> >> Are we intending that IRS satisfies BOTH these requirements (i.e. for ALL >> applications ?), or should we be more prescriptive about which application >> space we are addressing ? >> >> Thanks >> >> David >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: irs-discuss-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:irs-discuss-bounces@ietf.org] >> On Behalf Of Alia Atlas >> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 7:23 AM >> To: Olen Stokes >> Cc: irs-discuss@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments >> >> I have not specifically heard from application vendors about this. >> My current plan is that we focus on a Use-Cases draft and define within >> that some motivating use-cases that we agree are good first targets. Those >> can drive which subset of functionality we focus on. >> >> More use-cases are, of course, quite welcome. Posting them to the mailing >> list is a good first start. Russ White is starting the general use-cases >> draft based on the three use-cases that he sent to the list. >> >> Alia >> >> On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 9:43 AM, Olen Stokes <ostokes@extremenetworks.com> >> wrote: >>> Are there applications vendors out there that already have specific >>> requirements for what this " subset of the data-models for sub-interfaces" >>> should be? >>> >>> Olen >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: irs-discuss-bounces@ietf.org >>> [mailto:irs-discuss-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Alia Atlas >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 9:08 AM >>> To: Shah, Himanshu >>> Cc: Gert Grammel; irs-discuss@ietf.org; Lenny Giuliano; Thomas Nadeau; >>> Alia Atlas; Scott Whyte >>> Subject: Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments >>> >>> Hi Himanshu, >>> >>> Welcome. I agree that IRS isn't going to spring into being fully >>> formed - I expect that we'll focus on a subset of the data-models for >>> sub-interfaces along with an associated protocol (whether that is a new one >>> or extending an existing one). >>> >>> Alia >>> >>> On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 7:41 AM, Shah, Himanshu <hshah@ciena.com> wrote: >>>> Newbie to this discussions list and have read only a last couple of >>>> mails, so pardon the repeat if somebody has already raised the following as >>>> a concern. >>>> >>>> I realize we are early in IRS architecture definition but one thing to >>>> keep in mind is the user experience. >>>> We need to make sure that exposed interface to >>>> RIB/LFIB/FIB/IGPs/BGP/LSDBs etc etc provide a consistent predictive >>>> action/response/events even when different implementations has varying >>>> capabilities. >>>> >>>> At the moment it seems like a wild wild west. >>>> Perhaps IRS can be defined in phases starting with a simpler, limited >>>> version.. >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> himanshu >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: irs-discuss-bounces@ietf.org >>>> [mailto:irs-discuss-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Alia Atlas >>>> Sent: Monday, August 13, 2012 8:41 AM >>>> To: Scott Whyte >>>> Cc: Thomas Nadeau; Gert Grammel; Alia Atlas; Lenny Giuliano; >>>> irs-discuss@ietf.org >>>> Subject: Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments >>>> >>>> ...snip... >>>> >>>> On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 9:03 PM, Scott Whyte <swhyte@google.com> wrote: >>>>> On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 5:16 PM, Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>>> I do think it is important to have the RIB as an arbitration mechanism >>>>>> on the device. Russ's suggestion that for the RIB sub-interface, the >>>>>> IRS agent might communicate logically to an IRS routing process >>>>>> gives good semantics and interactions. Obviously, implementations >>>>>> may differ. >>>>> >>>>> As long as the arbitration mechanism is reconfigurable by the >>>>> operator to whatever precedence they want, I agree. Its not clear >>>>> to me if various RIB implementations treat all proffered routes the >>>>> same, nor if they store the same meta-data with all protocol sources. >>>>> So there needs to be some way for the operator to leverage exposed >>>>> protocol-specific optimizations, without conflict from the other >>>>> routing processes, if they so desire. OTOH if it can all be done >>>>> via static routes, it seems much simpler. :) >>>> >>>> Clearly the IRS sub-interface for the RIB needs to introduce/define the >>>> different precedences; my assumption is that it would be per route with a >>>> well-defined small set of meta-data. This is part of where having good >>>> use-cases will help us understand what behavior is necessary. The static >>>> routes do seem like a simpler case to start with. >>>> >>>> Alia >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> irs-discuss mailing list >>>> irs-discuss@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/irs-discuss >>> _______________________________________________ >>> irs-discuss mailing list >>> irs-discuss@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/irs-discuss >> _______________________________________________ >> irs-discuss mailing list >> irs-discuss@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/irs-discuss > _______________________________________________ > irs-discuss mailing list > irs-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/irs-discuss > > > >
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Thomas Nadeau
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Gert Grammel
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Alia Atlas
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Gert Grammel
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Alia Atlas
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Thomas Nadeau
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Lin Han
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Thomas Nadeau
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Thomas Nadeau
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Lin Han
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Alia Atlas
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Lin Han
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Susan Hares
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Robert Raszuk
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Thomas Nadeau
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Gert Grammel
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Scott Whyte
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Susan Hares
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Gert Grammel
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Alia Atlas
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Scott Whyte
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Alia Atlas
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Shah, Himanshu
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Alia Atlas
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Olen Stokes
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Alia Atlas
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments David Lake (dlake)
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Alia Atlas
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Dutta, Pranjal K (Pranjal)
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Alia Atlas
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Dutta, Pranjal K (Pranjal)
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments David Lake (dlake)
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Edward Crabbe
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Edward Crabbe
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Olen Stokes
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Alia Atlas
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Alia Atlas
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments David Lake (dlake)
- Re: [irs-discuss] 答复: 答复: IRS comments Thomas Nadeau
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Alia Atlas
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Edward Crabbe
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Shah, Himanshu
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Edward Crabbe
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Olen Stokes
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Edward Crabbe
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Robert Raszuk
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Alia Atlas
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Alia Atlas
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Alia Atlas
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Alia Atlas
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Shah, Himanshu
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments UTTARO, JAMES
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Lin Han
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Shah, Himanshu
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Alia Atlas
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Alia Atlas
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Alia Atlas
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Alia Atlas
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Dutta, Pranjal K (Pranjal)
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Shah, Himanshu
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Shah, Himanshu
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Dutta, Pranjal K (Pranjal)
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Alia Atlas
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Alia Atlas
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Alia Atlas
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Dutta, Pranjal K (Pranjal)
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Ramon Casellas
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Shah, Himanshu
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Shah, Himanshu
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Dutta, Pranjal K (Pranjal)
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Alia Atlas
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Alia Atlas
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Alia Atlas
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Dutta, Pranjal K (Pranjal)
- [irs-discuss] 答复: IRS comments Mach Chen
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Alia Atlas
- Re: [irs-discuss] 答复: IRS comments Alia Atlas
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Dutta, Pranjal K (Pranjal)
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Dutta, Pranjal K (Pranjal)
- [irs-discuss] 答复: 答复: IRS comments Mach Chen
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Alia Atlas
- Re: [irs-discuss] 答复: 答复: IRS comments Alia Atlas
- [irs-discuss] 答复: 答复: 答复: IRS comments Mach Chen
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Dutta, Pranjal K (Pranjal)
- Re: [irs-discuss] 答复: 答复: IRS comments Thomas Nadeau
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Acee Lindem
- Re: [irs-discuss] 答复: 答复: IRS comments Susan Hares
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Edward Crabbe
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Alia Atlas
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Edward Crabbe
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Edward Crabbe
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Alia Atlas
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Dutta, Pranjal K (Pranjal)
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Edward Crabbe
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Dutta, Pranjal K (Pranjal)
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Dutta, Pranjal K (Pranjal)
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Edward Crabbe
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Dutta, Pranjal K (Pranjal)
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Edward Crabbe
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Alia Atlas
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Thomas Nadeau