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[irtf-discuss] Re: [E-impact] Re: [Green] Re: Re: Draft Charter for an IRTF Proposed Research Group: Sustainability and the Internet Research Group (SUSTAIN RG)

Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> Sat, 09 November 2024 11:08 UTC

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Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2024 12:07:59 +0100
From: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>
To: Mahesh Jethanandani <mjethanandani@gmail.com>
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CC: Hesham ElBakoury <helbakoury@gmail.com>, "Ali Rezaki (Nokia)" <ali.rezaki@nokia.com>, Dan York <york@isoc.org>, E-Impact IETF <e-impact@ietf.org>, green@ietf.org, irtf-discuss@irtf.org, Eve Schooler at Gmail <eve.schooler@gmail.com>
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Subject: [irtf-discuss] Re: [E-impact] Re: [Green] Re: Re: Draft Charter for an IRTF Proposed Research Group: Sustainability and the Internet Research Group (SUSTAIN RG)
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Thanks, Mahesh

a) Any chance to not use html in your emails - makes quoting harder!

b)

> RGs do not standardise, but they do help define. My hope is that SUSTAIN RG will work
>  on the definition for energy efficiency, how it can be quantified, captured etc.

I very much hope that sustain RG will actually also include, if not even prioritize looking
into opportunities for supporting/encouraging the migration to "green" = renewable/sustainable
energy source/consumption, and not only efficicency.

Its IMHO for example easy to see how we can get mid-term to a surplus of renewable
energy during times of peak sun or wind, and any type of compute that can be
scheduled to utilize such excess energy instead of going into wasteful temporary
storage is likely a key opportunity to increase overall efficiency of green energy.
Right now, a lot of politicians running around, reviving the idea of using car
batteries as temporary storage for such excess green power. But the total carbon
footprint of such solutions would be far worse than that of compute given the limited
cycles of batteries and carbon cost of production - and recycling.

> GREEN is not looking into energy efficiency today. 

That is surprising to hear given the name of the WG. Sure, its is somewhat of a
"build it and they will come" - "anything you can measure, folks can easier optimize it",
but that certainly is a requirement for optimization, even if the optimization itself
is not something GREEN could do.

Cheers
    Toerless

On Sat, Nov 09, 2024 at 07:18:38AM +0000, Mahesh Jethanandani wrote:
> <html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto">Hi Hersham et. all,<div><br></div><div>Wanted to add some thoughts on the draft charter for SUSTAIN RG, vis-a-vis the plans for GREEN WG.<br><div><br></div><div><div dir="ltr"><blockquote type="cite"><br>On Nov 9, 2024, at 1:57 AM, Hesham ElBakoury &lt;helbakoury@gmail.com&gt; wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="auto">Thanks Ali,<div dir="auto">I think SUSTAIN RG should help GREEN standardize the right energy efficiency metrics.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>RGs do not standardise, but they do help define. My hope is that SUSTAIN RG will work on the definition for energy efficiency, how it can be quantified, captured etc.</div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="auto"><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">My understanding is that GREEN does not look into carbon efficiency metrics, who will explore these metrics?&nbsp;</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>GREEN is not looking into energy efficiency today. But that is not to say it will not in the future. My hope is that when GREEN is done with its current set of work, that SUSTAIN will have defined some of the metrics around energy efficiency for it to evaluate, and include in the charter.</div><div><br></div><div>Cheers.</div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="auto"><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I am also not clear on how you define green networks without looking into carbon efficiency?&nbsp;</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Thanks</div><div dir="auto">Heaham</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Nov 8, 2024, 5:27 AM Ali Rezaki (Nokia) &lt;<a href="mailto:ali.rezaki@nokia.com">ali.rezaki@nokia.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> <div lang="EN-GB" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="word-wrap:break-word">
> <div class="m_7880172198923523676WordSection1">
> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt">Hi Hesham,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt">Thanks for your further question.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt">As mentioned, defining metrics usually refers to agreeing on their models, format and use, as we are beginning to see in Green WG, which has the intention of standardization. Non-standardized
>  metrics have limited use and impact. On the research side, we could provide input, comments and feedback to this process, but we would not take ownership of defining metrics in SUSTAIN RG.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt">I hope this clarified your question.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt">Many thanks.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt">Best regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt">Ali<u></u><u></u></span></p>
> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
> <div>
> <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
> <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Hesham ElBakoury &lt;<a href="mailto:helbakoury@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">helbakoury@gmail.com</a>&gt;
> <br>
> <b>Sent:</b> Friday, November 8, 2024 5:54 AM<br>
> <b>To:</b> Ali Rezaki (Nokia) &lt;<a href="mailto:ali.rezaki@nokia.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">ali.rezaki@nokia.com</a>&gt;<br>
> <b>Cc:</b> Dirk Trossen &lt;<a href="mailto:dirk.trossen@huawei.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">dirk.trossen@huawei.com</a>&gt;; Dan York &lt;<a href="mailto:york@isoc.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">york@isoc.org</a>&gt;; E-Impact IETF &lt;<a href="mailto:e-impact@ietf.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">e-impact@ietf.org</a>&gt;; <a href="mailto:green@ietf.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">green@ietf.org</a>; <a href="mailto:irtf-discuss@irtf.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">irtf-discuss@irtf.org</a>; Eve Schooler at Gmail &lt;<a href="mailto:eve.schooler@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">eve.schooler@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Marie-Jose Montpetit &lt;<a href="mailto:marie@mjmontpetit.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">marie@mjmontpetit.com</a>&gt;<br>
> <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Green] Re: [E-impact] Re: Draft Charter for an IRTF Proposed Research Group: Sustainability and the Internet Research Group (SUSTAIN RG)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
> <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
> </div>
> </div>
> <div>
> <div>
> <p class="MsoNormal">Hi Ali, <u></u><u></u></p>
> <div>
> <p class="MsoNormal">What us the rationale behind the exclusion of defining metrics from the SUSTAIN charter?<u></u><u></u></p>
> </div>
> <div>
> <p class="MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
> </div>
> <div>
> <p class="MsoNormal">Thanks<u></u><u></u></p>
> </div>
> <div>
> <p class="MsoNormal">Hesham<u></u><u></u></p>
> </div>
> </div>
> <p class="MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
> <div>
> <div>
> <p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Nov 7, 2024, 3:17<span style="font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif"> </span>PM Ali Rezaki (Nokia) &lt;<a href="mailto:ali.rezaki@nokia.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">ali.rezaki@nokia.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
> </div>
> <blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
> <div>
> <div>
> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt">Hi Hesham,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt">Thanks very much for your e-mail.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt">As was also indicated in the Side Meeting yesterday, SUSTAIN RG, as part of IRTF, would not engage in standardization actions. While we will closely
>  cooperate with Green WG, defining metrics is not part of the proposed SUSTAIN RG charter. Research aspects of measurements and assessments and data collection and sharing are.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt">I hope this helps.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt">Many thanks.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt">Best regards,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt">Ali</span><u></u><u></u></p>
> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
> <div>
> <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
> <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Hesham
>  ElBakoury &lt;<a href="mailto:helbakoury@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">helbakoury@gmail.com</a>&gt;
> <br>
> <b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 6, 2024 4:33 PM<br>
> <b>To:</b> Ali Rezaki (Nokia) &lt;<a href="mailto:ali.rezaki@nokia.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">ali.rezaki@nokia.com</a>&gt;<br>
> <b>Cc:</b> Dirk Trossen &lt;<a href="mailto:dirk.trossen@huawei.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">dirk.trossen@huawei.com</a>&gt;; Dan York &lt;<a href="mailto:york@isoc.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">york@isoc.org</a>&gt;;
> <a href="mailto:e-impact@ietf.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">e-impact@ietf.org</a>; <a href="mailto:green@ietf.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">
> green@ietf.org</a>; <a href="mailto:irtf-discuss@irtf.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">irtf-discuss@irtf.org</a>; Eve Schooler at Gmail &lt;<a href="mailto:eve.schooler@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">eve.schooler@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Marie-Jose Montpetit &lt;<a href="mailto:marie@mjmontpetit.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">marie@mjmontpetit.com</a>&gt;<br>
> <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Green] Re: [E-impact] Re: Draft Charter for an IRTF Proposed Research Group: Sustainability and the Internet Research Group (SUSTAIN RG)</span><u></u><u></u></p>
> </div>
> </div>
> <p>&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
> <div>
> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
> <pre>Are we going to use the energy efficiecy metrics defined in GREEN and extend them in SUSTAINRG?<u></u><u></u></pre>
> </blockquote>
> <p class="MsoNormal">Hesham
> <u></u><u></u></p>
> </div>
> </div>
> </div>
> </blockquote>
> </div>
> </div>
> </div>
> </div>
> 
> </blockquote></div>
> <span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>Green mailing list -- green@ietf.org</span><br><span>To unsubscribe send an email to green-leave@ietf.org</span><br></div></blockquote><br><div>Mahesh Jethanandani<div>mjethanandani@gmail.com</div></div></div></div></body></html>
> -- 
> E-impact mailing list -- e-impact@ietf.org
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