From nobody Fri Aug 27 10:31:29 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: irtf-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: irtf-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2ABDB3A108E for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2021 08:38:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.088 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.088 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_FILL_THIS_FORM_SHORT=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zh31IzvwZVLp for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2021 08:38:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr1-x431.google.com (mail-wr1-x431.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::431]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7F6C13A107C for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2021 08:38:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr1-x431.google.com with SMTP id b6so11032839wrh.10 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2021 08:38:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=22MZc7ZAol0gWOy83IbSIEj0Nkd3w10maCMzeO8Fits=; b=DgKFNWi6uOCSR9k8/ZE1n7aan1XcelR0PX8l6uCiLpsqXFzbL9qJk1w31bPmoVg/Bd /lBJV8Rf7IMp8V/+gBBdkOBX4yBttTYe/gmrzDZ6mnbdMfd5j8xQFPQujlUe4P4izATL fqC+jcP/TgqaOuLwUlIbDGxLSxhmJ5Fa50frx7a5fWi+Ir13OnX4Yz76AFZVCoeIEidM nTXl+G+hiPmOCPhazV8Z2jZtXYL7Vp2ZyFrQui+ng26qom9Pc3kAN1kYzLBnXonVz/VY f3PJzFsC1avLm0j6btnZDNAdj+/bvQpPWavmrH7Rkj6zhdsbwhA2J8C5p1Pl9LVkNd3H dkfA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=22MZc7ZAol0gWOy83IbSIEj0Nkd3w10maCMzeO8Fits=; b=NNmN2DimOaVGawbJYlbZQTU0nWknDMz3CBE/O1UMPuQKgGRuJLW98RliGzBtw8K9LS ihbEJ5ZuqHG65TspnvMZr+k+KN2o8M3uGgyt6B6Jghe955Mcme0v3d0OyW0ueDGPEXxW lmwHJIvkNlstgkB62uVOj41DryiVesxShu2fxYJMFUB7uqYgTURo9Nw1UZP/O9sVdje+ +qDpjXUaCHeYYE+fPT/46xmL7tuuTmKtUb90+sisqnNmwgLwEwux7O+2UyyqNDmsAzDg fT6WrO4q8je520PmBUVHO5FNcE+N3ziK9BlGu97znoFSk15fYlC6jR6jlJz3ZZv9QOSX b9vA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533gCHeBP4hlY0VdSjmGFIj99JAGen5KwlVO9ejBAaxYwFeUyoM9 hpi0JsoNhZuAFN93hreSi/E= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzrKHtJP3/WBveuU0d0FikNA9WSbsm/gw+cTeF8TGcKJ7VL16cPIIvnnisC8zbCsycRscNorQ== X-Received: by 2002:a5d:6149:: with SMTP id y9mr11276490wrt.162.1630078702843; Fri, 27 Aug 2021 08:38:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple ([2a00:23c5:3395:c901:fcd1:23b8:c352:2792]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x18sm6707412wrw.19.2021.08.27.08.38.22 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 27 Aug 2021 08:38:22 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) From: Stewart Bryant In-Reply-To: <20210827144347.GA17191@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 16:38:21 +0100 Cc: Stewart Bryant , aid-workshop-pc@iab.org, irtf-discuss@irtf.org, architecture-discuss@ietf.org, Toerless Eckert Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <162999814684.20004.14983615742263566201@ietfa.amsl.com> <20210827144347.GA17191@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> To: iab@iab.org, IETF X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 10:31:20 -0700 Subject: Re: [irtf-discuss] [arch-d] Why closed IAB workshops ? Re: Call for Papers: Workshop on Analyzing IETF Data (AID), 2021 X-BeenThere: irtf-discuss@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF general and new-work discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 15:38:32 -0000 Unless the meeting is held under Chatham House rules, it should be as = open as the resources allow. Since we are meeting virtually for the foreseeable future a YouTube feed = would be relatively simple and allow anyone interested to list first = hand to the proceedings. - Stewart > On 27 Aug 2021, at 15:43, Toerless Eckert wrote: >=20 > Dear IAB, *: >=20 > I wonder why IAB workshops continue to be closed/invitation only = alone, > and would encourage IEF/IAB to rethink this policy in the face of our = evolving > technology opportunities and policy challenges. >=20 > I think i understand all the reasons why this makes sense for > active participation and even in-person passive participation (org, = cost, focus), > but: >=20 > I would very much like to see a policy where all IETF activities are > as public as possible. In the case of workshops where there is no = strong > content benefit of chatham house rules or similar concerns, and where > there is appropriate online tooling anyhow, i think there can and = should > always be a live-stream to live listen into (but not participate = actively) > such an event. >=20 > If for example webex is used, this is easily possible though = webex/youtube > integration, so that passive observers can use youtube to listen live. >=20 > To bring up the dreaded topic again as another example: I do not know > if a closed IAB workshop would be legal place for a US person to = provide > technology ideas when there are contributors in such an invittion only > workshop from entities on the US governments EAR entities list. I for = once > can not read into EAR 734.7 that such an event is covered by it. > I certainly would love to see a statement of the IETF lawyer about = this. >=20 > Cheers > Toerless >=20 > P.S.: This aparticularily is one workshop where i wouldn't have = anything > active to contribute, but where i am quite certain that i would learn > a lot more following the discussion in the room listening in remotely = than > just reading a workshop report later. So admittedly, this announcement > triggered my mail from self-interest, but i have been disappointed by > this IAB policy for a long time already. >=20 > On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 10:15:47AM -0700, IAB Executive Administrative = Manager wrote: >> Show me the numbers: Workshop on Analyzing IETF Data (AID), 2021 >>=20 >> Web Page: https://www.iab.org/activities/workshops/aid/ >>=20 >> The IETF as an international Standards Developing Organization hosts=20= >> diverse data on the history, development, and current activities in = the=20 >> development and standardization of Internet protocols and its=20 >> institutions. A large portion of this data is publicly available, yet=20= >> this data is arguably underutilized as a tool to inform the work in = the=20 >> IETF and research on topics like Internet governance and trends in = ICT=20 >> standard-setting. >>=20 >> This workshop aims to enable engineers and researchers alike to mine = the=20 >> IETF's data sources in order to explore trends through the analysis = of=20 >> IETF data, such as email archives=20 >> , I-Ds=20 >> , RFCs=20 >> , and the datatracker=20 >> . This work can be used to derive=20 >> insights into the inner workings of the process of standardization,=20= >> participation, and governance[1]. This workshop aims to bring = together=20 >> people who have already analyzed IETF data, those who are interested = in=20 >> the analysis of IETF data, and those who are interested in the = results=20 >> of such analysis as input for improvement of the IETF's work. >>=20 >> We invite the research community, IETF participants, and others with = an=20 >> interest in the data collected by the IETF, its protocols, and=20 >> participants, to submit a contribution to the workshop. Furthermore, = we=20 >> also welcome participants who are interested in the analysis that = could=20 >> be performed based on this data as well as those contributing=20 >> considerations regarding future collection and handling of IETF data. >>=20 >> Possible avenues for explorations include, but are not limited to: >>=20 >> A. What are patterns for participation in the IETF (what are=20 >> predictors for a long and productive tenure, when do people stop=20= >> participating, what is needed to successfully produce RFCs)? >> B. How is the IETF community developing (i.e., affiliations,=20 >> publications, language, nationality, leadership positions)? >> C. How do affiliations develop in the IETF (i.e., does a change in=20= >> affiliation translate into a change in behavior, is there a=20 >> relation between affiliation and leadership positions and/or=20 >> centrality, what is the affiliation distribution per area and/or=20= >> WG)? >> D. What social dynamics (gender, nationality, income, occupation, = and=20 >> other social dynamics) are not captured by IETF data and what = data=20 >> and research approaches are needed to develop further insights in=20= >> the social dynamics of standardization? >> E. How productive and effective is the IETF, with respect to=20 >> documents, pages, words, letters and in comparison the overall=20 >> activities e.g. on mailing lists? >> F. How well is the outcome of the IETF used, e.g,. based on = references=20 >> to RFCs in research papers, product manuals, or other sources? >> G. What data would be relevant to collect that is not collected yet = or=20 >> what should be considered with respect to handling of personal = data=20 >> during the data collection and research. >> H. How effective is the IETF's consensus-based decision making=20 >> process? Is there evidence that documents receive broad and=20 >> effective reviews? Are experts with relevant expertise engaging=20= >> with developing standards in a timely manner? >>=20 >> Participation and Submission >>=20 >> People interested in participation are requested to submit short=20 >> position papers (500-1000 words). The paper can cover one or multiple = of=20 >> the following points, but this list should not be considered = exhaustive: >>=20 >> 1. Research questions and interests in IETF data; indication which=20= >> question should be answered, the data needed to do so, and how=20 >> these insights could be used to improve processes and operations; >> 2. Description of the IETF data they aim to analyze or the = information=20 >> they would like to see made available to inform their work (such = as=20 >> mailing list archives, or participation data obtained through the=20= >> datatracker) and their methods for doing so (see footnote 1); >> 3. Potential and preliminary findings; and how those insights could=20= >> either benefit leadership, WG chairs, and authors/participants,=20= >> and/or society and industry at large; >> 4. Potential or preliminary findings and how those add novel = insights=20 >> to ongoing academic debates. >>=20 >> Proposals for data analysis should also contain a brief consideration = of=20 >> any related ethics and privacy issues. The basic principles of = ethical=20 >> research are outlined in the Belmont Report2 (covering e.g., respect = for=20 >> persons, beneficence, and justice) and/or institutional ethics=20 >> guidelines. >>=20 >> The workshop will be invitation-only. The organizers will decide whom = to=20 >> invite based on the submissions received. Therefore, please indicate=20= >> your interest by submitting a research proposal by September 29, 2021 = to=20 >> aid-workshop-pc@iab.org. >>=20 >> The Program Committee members are Niels ten Oever (chair, University = of=20 >> Amsterdam), Colin Perkins (chair, IRTF, University of Glasgow), = Corinne=20 >> Cath (chair, Oxford Internet Institute), Mirja K=C3=BChlewind (IAB,=20= >> Ericsson), Zhenbin Li (IAB, Huawei), Wes Hardaker (IAB, USC/ISI). >>=20 >> All inputs submitted and considered relevant will be published on the=20= >> workshop web page. Sessions will be organized according to content, = and=20 >> not every accepted submission or invited attendee will have an=20 >> opportunity to present as the intent is to foster discussion and not=20= >> simply to have a sequence of presentations. >>=20 >> Position papers from those unable to attend in person are encouraged. = A=20 >> workshop report will be published afterwards. >>=20 >> Logistics >>=20 >> =E2=80=A2 Submissions Due: 29 September 2021 >> =E2=80=A2 Invitations Issued by: 15 October 2021 >> =E2=80=A2 Workshop Date: November 29 =E2=80=93 December 3 2021 >> =E2=80=A2 Location: Online and at the University of Amsterdam = (COVID-19=20 >> permitting). >>=20 >> The workshop will consist of three parts: >>=20 >> 1. opening workshop (Monday) >> 2. hackathon (Tuesday =E2=80=93 Thursday morning) >> 3. closing event (Thursday afternoon) >>=20 >> Feel free to contact the program committee with any further questions=20= >> (including questions related to available data or expected outcomes):=20= >> aid-workshop-pc@iab.org. >>=20 >> ----- >> [1] Examples of such approaches are:=20 >> https://www.arkko.com/tools/docstats.html,=20 >> http://datactive.github.io/bigbang/,=20 >> = https://csperkins.org/research/protocol-standards/2020-12-10-ignacio-iesg-= talk/2020-12-10_IESG-50-years-IETF-send.pdf,=20 >> = https://sodestream.github.io/impact-of-early-engagement-on-longevity-of-ie= tf-participation.html >>=20 >> [2] = https://www.hhs.gov/ohrp/sites/default/files/the-belmont-report-508c_FINAL= .pdf >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> IETF-Announce mailing list >> IETF-Announce@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Architecture-discuss mailing list > Architecture-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss