[irtf-discuss] Re: [Green] [E-impact] Re: Draft Charter for an IRTF Proposed Research Group: Sustainability and the Internet Research Group (SUSTAIN RG)

[Dirk Trossen <[e-mail]>]

Hi Ali,

Thanks for the consideration. For clarification, it is an aspect of inclusion or exclusion.

Routing is a very specific network function. Maybe a good candidate for opportunities but some routing folks may wonder why singling out routing in the charter. “Networking” is inclusive to the wider space of opportunity for carbon awareness and reduction, plus it allows for linking yet delimiting against computing.

Best,

Dirk

From: Ali Rezaki (Nokia) <[e-mail]>
Sent: 05 November 2024 14:27
To: Marie-Jose Montpetit <[e-mail]>; Dirk Trossen <[e-mail]>
Cc: Hesham ElBakoury <[e-mail]>; Eve Schooler <[e-mail]>; Eliot Lear <[e-mail]>; E-Impact IETF <[e-mail]>; [e-mail]; [e-mail]
Subject: RE: [Green] [E-impact] Re: [irtf-discuss] Draft Charter for an IRTF Proposed Research Group: Sustainability and the Internet Research Group (SUSTAIN RG)

Thanks very much Marie-José, Dirk, for your perspectives on this.

Indeed, we could adopt “carbon-aware networking’ in the text. This could be a candidate term to be included in the baseline terminology reference we envision to create in the RG, where we could elaborate on the nuances among carbon-aware routing, networking and computing.

Many thanks.

Best regards,

Ali


From: Marie-Jose Montpetit <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Sent: Tuesday, November 5, 2024 1:28 PM
To: Dirk Trossen <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Cc: Ali Rezaki (Nokia) <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>; Hesham ElBakoury <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>; Eve Schooler <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>; Eliot Lear <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>; E-Impact IETF <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>; [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>; [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Green] [E-impact] Re: [irtf-discuss] Draft Charter for an IRTF Proposed Research Group: Sustainability and the Internet Research Group (SUSTAIN RG)


I also think that "carbon aware networking” is more appropriate as the decisions may be multidimensional.

mjm
Marie-José Montpetit, Ing. Ph.D.
[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>




On Nov 5, 2024, at 7:23 AM, Dirk Trossen <dirk.trossen=[e-mail]<mailto:dirk.trossen=[e-mail]>> wrote:

Quick note on this in relation to a follow-up discussion we had after yesterday’s ANRP presentation on carbon-aware routing: once you feed carbon metrics into a steering decision, i.e., whether I send traffic from a client to site A over B, you somewhat move into “carbon-aware computing” since the steering decision may go along with site-level decisions to manage the consumption at site (e.g., limiting oneself to curtailed energy to run the compute infra effectively carbon negative).

I much prefer the term “carbon-aware networking” (or carbon-reducing networking) over “carbon-aware routing” (as currently used in the charter text) to have the full scope of the possible decision albeit leaving out the (computing) site-specific energy management approaches.

Best,

Dirk

From: Ali Rezaki (Nokia) <ali.rezaki=[e-mail]<mailto:ali.rezaki=[e-mail]>>
Sent: 05 November 2024 12:08
To: Hesham ElBakoury <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>; Eve Schooler <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Cc: Eliot Lear <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>; Ali Rezaki (Nokia) <ali.rezaki=[e-mail]<mailto:ali.rezaki=[e-mail]>>; E-Impact IETF <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>; [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>; [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>
Subject: [Green] Re: [E-impact] Re: [irtf-discuss] Draft Charter for an IRTF Proposed Research Group: Sustainability and the Internet Research Group (SUSTAIN RG)

Thanks very much Hesham for your support!

As Eve mentioned, the focus in the charter is on Carbon Aware Networking – rather differentiated from computing.

Many thanks.

Best regards,

Ali

From: Hesham ElBakoury <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Sent: Friday, November 1, 2024 9:27 PM
To: Eve Schooler <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Cc: Eliot Lear <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>; Ali Rezaki (Nokia) <ali.rezaki=[e-mail]<mailto:ali.rezaki=[e-mail]>>; E-Impact IETF <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>; [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>; [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>; Ali Rezaki (Nokia) <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Subject: Re: [E-impact] Re: [irtf-discuss] Draft Charter for an IRTF Proposed Research Group: Sustainability and the Internet Research Group (SUSTAIN RG)



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Glad to see carbon aware computing covered by this RG.

Thanks
Hesham

On Fri, Nov 1, 2024, 1:21 PM Eve Schooler <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
To clarify, the topic proposed in the SUSTAIN RG charter is the investigation of carbon-aware networking.
--Eve

On Fri, Nov 1, 2024 at 1:05 PM Eve Schooler <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
Hi Eliot,

Thanks for your feedback.
The Internet can indeed be applied to scenarios where it can enable savings, which is what is meant in the charter when we refer to the Internet's potential handprint. We are aiming for the RG to focus on the Internet footprint, to balance with discussion on its handprint, whilst avoiding greenwashing (e.g., using the positive impact to eclipse addressing its negative impacts).
The example you cite -- "load shifting based on where the sun or wind can be found" -- is included in the SUSTAIN RG charter as carbon-aware computing, a topic that is not covered by the GREEN WG.

Best,
Eve

On Fri, Nov 1, 2024 at 11:06 AM Eliot Lear <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:

Ali,

Thanks for driving this.  This group is extremely well timed, given the vast amounts of resources that AI and its associated hype are consuming.  I would suggest that you consider one additional aspect: the Internet doesn't just consume resources, but it can also be used to SAVE resources.  For instance, load shifting based on where the sun or wind can be found, energy-aware infrastructure (GREEN, etc).

Regards,

Eliot
On 01.11.2024 00:39, Ali Rezaki (Nokia) wrote:

Dear E-impact, Green WG, IRTF-discuss Lists, Colleagues,



We have been working on a draft charter for an IRTF Proposed Research Group: Sustainability and the Internet Research Group (SUSTAIN RG). Please find enclosed v1.0 of this draft charter proposal for your review and feedback.



We have scheduled a Public Side Meeting at IETF 121 in Dublin, on 6 November 2024, at 14:30 GMT (UTC+0) in Wicklow Hall 2A, to present the background and details of the charter and to have an open discussion. We are aware that public side meetings are difficult to attend remotely. Accordingly, we will arrange an additional on-line meeting about a week after the IETF 121 to ensure adequate access for remote participation as well.



We have created a GitHub repository for the development of the charter with community feedback and the management of the side meeting at: https://github.com/rezaki-ali/IRTF_SUSTAIN_RG. The draft charter is available in this repository as well.



We would greatly appreciate it if you would be able to review the draft charter proposal for the SUSTAIN RG and kindly share your feedback with us please. We would also be very happy to see you at the SUSTAIN RG Public Side Meeting at IETF 121 and/or at the on-line meeting to be arranged just after IETF 121.



Many thanks to Colin Perkins, Jari Arkko, Suresh Krishnan, Noa Zilberman, Jukka Manner, Romain Jakob, Michael Welzl, Chris Adams for their review of earlier drafts and their feedback. Many thanks to Dirk Kutscher, David R. Oran, Lixia Zhang, Kurtis Heimerl for their input on priorities and perspectives.



Looking forward to developing the SUSTAIN RG charter with your contributions.



Many thanks and best regards,



Ali and Eve


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