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Tue, 12 Nov 2024 18:26:48 +0000 From: Mark Butcher To: Dean Bogdanovic Thread-Topic: [Green] [E-impact] Network Equipment Energy Efficiency Metric Thread-Index: AQHbNScmNNclUjTW1EuVRfVo41Nj4bKz8H+n Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2024 18:26:48 +0000 Message-ID: References: <361466.1731421949@dyas> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-reactions: allow authentication-results: dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc=none action=none header.from=posetiv.co.uk; x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: LO2P123MB4634:EE_|LO4P123MB6594:EE_ x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 100eb7c1-a299-4691-cba7-08dd03479254 x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0;ARA:13230040|376014|4022899009|1800799024|366016|8096899003|38070700018; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: =?Windows-1252?Q?TCxKR+mtntPO6tGjhMnnVVGTvKJSPO9UF23UCwvu5lw+eQlhEEDWyRmz?= =?Windows-1252?Q?+8LEsJRKm9U1ld6VtL1fVty+1W1SV2drpdBxB/aFsK6WcpVIa/8ZLxop?= =?Windows-1252?Q?9Op3Eiyqpstfcpd3m4EW3iM+soOQ28lNaoLhzi/Ar3tb7laJo314ayRx?= =?Windows-1252?Q?OX0k0X19AXxPRLoVheF2WRLkMgaIwwJ/4hnsyT9mJYrpb2wnwgnMpnAw?= =?Windows-1252?Q?NSeXDrBKGjDPFktzYuT7fod/ruKM5RNFtIBGhrp4ffXr9EmvWo4J0ggs?= =?Windows-1252?Q?3ugIV8YqCnDlSXnEe2WzKvKwsGgwTAq98ddvwczJUQaFftnDc4BgbJ+f?= =?Windows-1252?Q?LlNYrQAWvk/7R3GQ3xeMt/SvK0H1oAAtlhMIDi6TUqtDTkCQaDn8InwX?= =?Windows-1252?Q?9wA6XIyko4ix46Ma1JyHBnJ3xNSLYlQqifl9mLprgHmL6ZmWtkWiaS9T?= =?Windows-1252?Q?GOtJ/hL5teIxtK8fTNW1TBMZZBR/K9uVJZQsiwDjH03GGkvnyQYqi8KL?= =?Windows-1252?Q?goOgxk1w9WUPRWF1OeVMGltT56/LO06V2HuS8MSl/6kl3gpopUljzPLK?= =?Windows-1252?Q?GGi6XztfsVFjL9svTTVtvknBHA1z+cQEkbOZCrHWgv2SyCvy6GAQ/3+L?= =?Windows-1252?Q?8rlyUGFGNFVscu/3qaOUAYxRV4yPd57Y/YweK0xIES3zosGVAOxWyOq5?= =?Windows-1252?Q?QD2ORLAUm/hsEoEEImGtFuWwiAMnCumVZS+NUzGuXnrfaCCOskMdcMpT?= =?Windows-1252?Q?Xb1Z3ZGuqzYTA1DWpWCsrLNFGBiPq2OmrtLXIoGmlUfxcUrawZa4Hvs7?= =?Windows-1252?Q?rSr5J8hiYwMc+rF4zqUhiNtw/S9pB0KPgTnCP7NgR35oKhkG/d2gHGa/?= =?Windows-1252?Q?zCJYgaYdoFGuB2RgNSFRgSHCDYBdVz4xZ5liJjsn13ztJDDotcVXDlFT?= =?Windows-1252?Q?uGAD4tM8jRofQrtxG/zLPD3ThrZ3vFTA9y3201ntb/mYYBqDK9ITtZGW?= =?Windows-1252?Q?bdt9cu729aZ3SzzdPg6IOeJRkGAevMjvpwNA8qVqxLaXEi1R7Jbr5zDO?= =?Windows-1252?Q?nf3Ai7RAwZ532mJHO+mOiyAoxOmkXT4AM//HTY5mWe3R2tVowO0qq2A+?= =?Windows-1252?Q?kY3hcwxe10JKXSudRuWZs2/MajMukcVkqoteKmoBNJFDq4+VDoPXPi4H?= =?Windows-1252?Q?N0ZWZX51XUepnAKyTebRSsaWqvx8lvQy689Y6rGtGOdo2yr/D3irJZCH?= =?Windows-1252?Q?hfxz7gpnL6Ostk+Efc+aeKYe9VndIeZD5rMEaPtTnet4qAVpLOxXlF/A?= =?Windows-1252?Q?HJLBfTJGy9qRa+eh4Q3+yc92Eu/o0W1rSzMkA2VJjAtz9PGb9O2l1izp?= =?Windows-1252?Q?r2R4OIoX41BUbtf8lnEKQzu0d49y1PAKm/5V5773dnLVpDefzUj+Yt0Z?= x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255;CTRY:;LANG:en;SCL:1;SRV:;IPV:NLI;SFV:NSPM;H:LO2P123MB4634.GBRP123.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM;PTR:;CAT:NONE;SFS:(13230040)(376014)(4022899009)(1800799024)(366016)(8096899003)(38070700018);DIR:OUT;SFP:1102; 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boundary="_000_CWLP123MB46267CADC557DE2A5DE89F8C9F592CWLP123MB4626GBRP_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: posetiv.co.uk X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: LO2P123MB4634.GBRP123.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 100eb7c1-a299-4691-cba7-08dd03479254 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 12 Nov 2024 18:26:48.8890 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 0f266663-6cfe-4b7c-adef-7681d4137209 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: s4IVro+KKKQNHTwlgcSTMYCH+irg+2nh9EndOQ/Udv5TLCxRO5T4L9Fzlw1skBHBUPXT4H/mAK14U3rK7oLkBw== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: LO4P123MB6594 Message-ID-Hash: FTSBMBYKAOXCB5QXLOLGQRZ462SDFKFT X-Message-ID-Hash: FTSBMBYKAOXCB5QXLOLGQRZ462SDFKFT X-MailFrom: mark@posetiv.co.uk X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-irtf-discuss.irtf.org-0; header-match-irtf-discuss.irtf.org-1; header-match-irtf-discuss.irtf.org-2; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: Michael Richardson , "green@ietf.org" , E-Impact IETF , "irtf-discuss@irtf.org" X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.9rc6 Precedence: list Subject: =?utf-8?q?=5Birtf-discuss=5D_Re=3A_=5BGreen=5D_=5BE-impact=5D_Network_Equipm?= =?utf-8?q?ent_Energy_Efficiency_Metric?= List-Id: IRTF general and new-work discussion list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --_000_CWLP123MB46267CADC557DE2A5DE89F8C9F592CWLP123MB4626GBRP_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello! I=92m definitely never going to claim to be a grid expert, but=85 understan= ding the grid=92s dynamics, especially active, reactive, and apparent power= is definitely essential if the objective is to get a better handle on powe= r usage across networks. It=92s obvs. not just about energy efficiency; tra= nslating this into carbon emissions gets even more critical when you consid= er how different power sources impact the grid's overall carbon intensity. = I=92ve had some interesting chats with operators this year around how they = are planning to move from supply side to demand side shaping. I don=92t envy the Grid operators facing the balancing act between cost, st= ability, emissions targets, and resilience (especially as the subject of re= newables come into play). Getting even vaguely accurate carbon intensity me= trics from them isn=92t easy and there=92s lot of sweeping assumptions. Wha= t=92s your view on the regional info shared by operators like the National = Grid? I don=92t think it=92s perfect but it=92s at least more accurate than= a national average as it reflects their understanding of the flows/mix. Starting with simpler elements, like SFPs, and then scaling up to more comp= lex topologies makes sense. Tracking energy consumption at this granular le= vel, from individual components up to entire network sections, could provid= e the data points needed to make informed decisions on reducing emissions, = rather than just measuring usage (if we assume we can use intensity metrics= from the operators). Do you think breaking it down into energy consumption at the element, group= , and network levels would give insights we could actually use and more imp= ortantly to act on? Or is this overkill without an agreed structure/approac= h on what to do with the data and how to interpret it? Have you got any good examples where you=92ve seen this work? I=92m doing a= lot of work in data centres on this subject and the networks teams are oft= en excluded because of the complexity of their operations (outside of core = DC networks). Looking forward to discussing this further! I personally believe there=92s = definitely a lot we can do. It would also be good to consider how the data = that=92s collated can be rolled into the reporting within IT and the wider = business. Thanks Mark From: Dean Bogdanovic Date: Tuesday, 12 November 2024 at 17:20 To: Mark Butcher Cc: Michael Richardson , green@ietf.org , E-Impact IETF , irtf-discuss@irtf.org Subject: Re: [Green] [E-impact] Network Equipment Energy Efficiency Metric I=92m really curious how many people understand how electrical grid operate= s, the difference between active, reactive and apparent power in electrical gr= id. And how the grip operators are balancing power plants to maintain the n= eeded power levels, how the operators decide between economic dispatch, gri= d stability and frequency regulation, environmental regulations and emissio= ns , operational flexibility at the power plants etc. Until we do, I would not speak about CO2 emissions and other complex energy= and traffic engineering relations. Lets first figure out how to report energy consumption by the networks, fro= m very basic power consumers (SFPs) to more complex, like topologies. And p= rovide the ability to provide the energy consumption information about an e= lement, group of elements, part of network or even whole network to people = who will know what to do with the info. Dean On 12 Nov 2024, at 14:59, Mark Butcher wrote: What=92s interesting is seeing how kWh/GB is so variable =96 either based o= n network demand, the reality of the power curve and most importantly for m= e, when translated into CO2e how the variability massively increases (time = and location) From: Michael Richardson Date: Tuesday, 12 November 2024 at 14:32 To: green@ietf.org , E-Impact IETF , irt= f-discuss@irtf.org Subject: [Green] Re: [E-impact] Network Equipment Energy Efficiency Metric Is is useful for network planners to know kWh/peak-GB for an entire infrast= ructure? This doesn't try to model reaction of network equipment to increased flows, but rather to model how infrastructure grows to accomodate higher peak load= s? There is also an induced demand issue. Networks grow when they fill, assuming there is revenue to support it. This is akin to transportation: https://www.vtpi.org/gentraf.pdf -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- *I*LIKE*TRAINS* _______________________________________________ Green mailing list -- green@ietf.org To unsubscribe send an email to green-leave@ietf.org --_000_CWLP123MB46267CADC557DE2A5DE89F8C9F592CWLP123MB4626GBRP_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello!

 

I=92m definitely never going to claim to be a grid expert, but=85 u= nderstanding the grid=92s dynamics, especially active, reactive, and appare= nt power is definitely essential if the objective is to get a better handle on power usage across networks. It=92s obvs. not= just about energy efficiency; translating this into carbon emissions gets = even more critical when you consider how different power sources impact the= grid's overall carbon intensity. I=92ve had some interesting chats with operators this year around how they= are planning to move from supply side to demand side shaping.

 

I don=92t envy the Grid operators facing the balancing act between = cost, stability, emissions targets, and resilience (especially as the subje= ct of renewables come into play). Getting even vaguely accurate carbon intensity metrics from them isn=92t easy and = there=92s lot of sweeping assumptions. What=92s your view on the regional i= nfo shared by operators like the National Grid? I don=92t think it=92s perf= ect but it=92s at least more accurate than a national average as it reflects their understanding of the flows/mix.=

 

Starting with simpler elements, like SFPs, and then scaling up to m= ore complex topologies makes sense. Tracking energy consumption at this gra= nular level, from individual components up to entire network sections, could provide the data points needed to mak= e informed decisions on reducing emissions, rather than just measuring usag= e (if we assume we can use intensity metrics from the operators).

 

Do you think breaking it down into energy consumption at the elemen= t, group, and network levels would give insights we could actually use and = more importantly to act on? Or is this overkill without an agreed structure/approach on what to do with the data = and how to interpret it?

 

Have you got any good examples where you=92ve seen this work? I=92m= doing a lot of work in data centres on this subject and the networks teams= are often excluded because of the complexity of their operations (outside of core DC networks).

 

Looking forward to discussing this further! I personally believe th= ere=92s definitely a lot we can do. It would also be good to consider how t= he data that=92s collated can be rolled into the reporting within IT and the wider business.

 

Thanks

 

Mark

 

 

 

From: Dean Bogdanovic <= ;ivandean@gmail.com>
Date: Tuesday, 12 November 2024 at 17:20
To: Mark Butcher <mark@posetiv.co.uk>
Cc: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, green@ietf.org= <green@ietf.org>, E-Impact IETF <e-impact@ietf.org>, irtf-disc= uss@irtf.org <irtf-discuss@irtf.org>
Subject: Re: [Green] [E-impact] Network Equipment Energy Efficiency = Metric

I=92m really cu= rious how many people understand how electrical grid operates,

the difference = between active, reactive and apparent power in electrical grid. And how the= grip operators are balancing power plants to maintain the needed power lev= els, how the operators decide between economic dispatch, grid stability and frequency regulation, environmental regulatio= ns and emissions , operational flexibility at the power plants etc.
Until we do, I would not speak about CO2 emissions and other complex energy= and traffic engineering relations.

Lets first figu= re out how to report energy consumption by the networks, from very basic po= wer consumers (SFPs) to more complex, like topologies. And provide the abil= ity to provide the energy consumption information about an element, group of elements, part of network or even whole network= to people who will know what to do with the info.

Dean=

On 12 Nov 2024,= at 14:59, Mark Butcher wrote:

What=92s interesting is seeing how kWh/GB is so varia= ble =96 either based on network demand, the reality of the power curve and most importantly for me, when translated into CO2e = how the variability massively increases (time and location)

 

 

From: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
Date: Tuesday, 12 November 2024 at 14:32
To: green@ietf.org <green@ietf.org>, E-Impact IETF <e-impac= t@ietf.org>, irtf-discuss@irtf.org <irtf-discuss@irtf.org>
Subject: [Green] Re: [E-impact] Network Equipment Energy Efficiency = Metric


Is is useful for network planners to know kWh/peak-GB for an entire infrast= ructure?

This doesn't try to model reaction of network equipment to increased flows,=
but rather to model how infrastructure grows to accomodate higher peak load= s?

There is also an induced demand issue.  Networks grow when they fill,<= br> assuming there is revenue to support it.  This is akin to transportati= on:
      https://www.vtpi.org/gentraf.pdf

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works<= br>  -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-      &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;  *I*LIKE*TRAINS*

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