[irtf-discuss] Re: [Green] [E-impact] Re: Draft Charter for an IRTF Proposed Research Group: Sustainability and the Internet Research Group (SUSTAIN RG)

[Michael Welzl <[e-mail]>]

Hi all,

Here are my two cents (and I hope my co-chairs agree). I’m removing all but irtf-discuss: in the SUSTAIN RG side meeting, we decided that the conversation should continue there - I don’t think this needs so many recipients.

An RG is quite different from a WG. WGs are commonly created because a group of people wants to do something; then the IETF must make sure that what they do is in line with what suits the IETF, which is why charter discussions take so long and are so important. Some RGs may have (had) a similar form - I guess that the DTN RG, for example, was like that: a group of people with a concrete plan.

The SUSTAIN RG will be different. We have a general plan to constructively work towards sustainability in networking; of course we want to help the GREEN WG if we can, etc. etc. - BUT: whatever our RG does, will depend on people.
We can try to steer things to some degree: e.g., we can say “we’re not allowing this presentation, it’s out of scope”, or “this draft shouldn’t be published via our RG, please go elsewhere”. We can actively try to involve people, as we’re hoping to do, e.g. to bring other research communities to us and foster interdisciplinary research.  (to be more concrete, for example, we’re hoping to get some folks that *really* know about the energy grid to share things with us).  This kind of steering is what’s guided by our charter - which is important, but still a very different thing from your common WG charter.

However, what I haven’t seen so far is a group of people who, through our RG, plan to work on metrics. So, we can stand in the middle of an IETF space and shout “metrics, metrics, metrics!” but nothing will happen unless someone volunteers to work on metrics, and has a plan. So, Hesham, Mahesh - volunteer to do the work, or find us these people, propose for them to contribute to our group (once it is chartered, if it will be! This is discussion is actually too early!) and then I believe that it may happen. Else, just repeating “metrics!!!!!!” will just not achieve anything.  Similarly, whether we write “METRICS !” in our charter or not won’t make a difference - it’s pretty clear that they’re in scope if someone wants to do work on them.

Cheers,
Michael



> On Nov 9, 2024, at 8:22 AM, Hesham ElBakoury <[e-mail]> wrote:
> 
> Thanks Mahesh!
> I agree with you.
> 
> Since SUSTAIN RG will look into carbon aware networking, I think it should also work on defining (not standardizing) carbon efficiency metrics.
> 
> Hesham
> 
> On Fri, Nov 8, 2024, 11:18 PM Mahesh Jethanandani <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
>> Hi Hersham et. all,
>> 
>> Wanted to add some thoughts on the draft charter for SUSTAIN RG, vis-a-vis the plans for GREEN WG.
>> 
>>> 
>>> On Nov 9, 2024, at 1:57 AM, Hesham ElBakoury <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Thanks Ali,
>>> I think SUSTAIN RG should help GREEN standardize the right energy efficiency metrics.
>> 
>> RGs do not standardise, but they do help define. My hope is that SUSTAIN RG will work on the definition for energy efficiency, how it can be quantified, captured etc.
>> 
>>> 
>>> My understanding is that GREEN does not look into carbon efficiency metrics, who will explore these metrics? 
>> 
>> GREEN is not looking into energy efficiency today. But that is not to say it will not in the future. My hope is that when GREEN is done with its current set of work, that SUSTAIN will have defined some of the metrics around energy efficiency for it to evaluate, and include in the charter.
>> 
>> Cheers.
>> 
>>> 
>>> I am also not clear on how you define green networks without looking into carbon efficiency? 
>>> 
>>> Thanks
>>> Heaham
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Fri, Nov 8, 2024, 5:27 AM Ali Rezaki (Nokia) <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
>>>> Hi Hesham,
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks for your further question.
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> As mentioned, defining metrics usually refers to agreeing on their models, format and use, as we are beginning to see in Green WG, which has the intention of standardization. Non-standardized metrics have limited use and impact. On the research side, we could provide input, comments and feedback to this process, but we would not take ownership of defining metrics in SUSTAIN RG.
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> I hope this clarified your question.
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> Many thanks.
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> Best regards,
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> Ali
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> From: Hesham ElBakoury <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>
>>>> Sent: Friday, November 8, 2024 5:54 AM
>>>> To: Ali Rezaki (Nokia) <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>
>>>> Cc: Dirk Trossen <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>; Dan York <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>; E-Impact IETF <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>; [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>; [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>; Eve Schooler at Gmail <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>; Marie-Jose Montpetit <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Green] Re: [E-impact] Re: Draft Charter for an IRTF Proposed Research Group: Sustainability and the Internet Research Group (SUSTAIN RG)
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> Hi Ali, 
>>>> 
>>>> What us the rationale behind the exclusion of defining metrics from the SUSTAIN charter?
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks
>>>> 
>>>> Hesham
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> On Thu, Nov 7, 2024, 3:17 PM Ali Rezaki (Nokia) <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Hi Hesham,
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks very much for your e-mail.
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> As was also indicated in the Side Meeting yesterday, SUSTAIN RG, as part of IRTF, would not engage in standardization actions. While we will closely cooperate with Green WG, defining metrics is not part of the proposed SUSTAIN RG charter. Research aspects of measurements and assessments and data collection and sharing are.
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> I hope this helps.
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> Many thanks.
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> Best regards,
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> Ali
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> From: Hesham ElBakoury <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 6, 2024 4:33 PM
>>>> To: Ali Rezaki (Nokia) <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>
>>>> Cc: Dirk Trossen <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>; Dan York <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>; [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>; [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>; [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>; Eve Schooler at Gmail <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>; Marie-Jose Montpetit <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Green] Re: [E-impact] Re: Draft Charter for an IRTF Proposed Research Group: Sustainability and the Internet Research Group (SUSTAIN RG)
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> Are we going to use the energy efficiecy metrics defined in GREEN and extend them in SUSTAINRG?
>>>> Hesham
>>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Green mailing list -- [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>
>>> To unsubscribe send an email to [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>
>> 
>> Mahesh Jethanandani
>> [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>_______________________________________________
> Green mailing list -- [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>
> To unsubscribe send an email to [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>