Re: [Isis-wg] [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions-04
Peter Psenak <ppsenak@cisco.com> Mon, 12 February 2018 14:55 UTC
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Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 15:55:06 +0100
From: Peter Psenak <ppsenak@cisco.com>
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To: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>, Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
CC: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>, Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com>, "bier@ietf.org" <bier@ietf.org>, "isis-wg@ietf.org list" <isis-wg@ietf.org>, Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>, Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>, "Hannes Gredler (hannes@gredler.at)" <hannes@gredler.at>
References: <20170721062741.GA3215@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <CA+wi2hOCZkLeuqnqr-waNMtaex+Pjq3rXzH-HVqJhLkWQUgj_Q@mail.gmail.com> <567fdbe4992c4207b54c77b1ec8cd0cd@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com> <20170722133419.GA18218@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <37e324dc58454778b70c72255066536f@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <20170725195211.GA7411@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <CABFReBpt088=SC3eBcfFbJ24e_+GkDmvKh05AaQtUmCoaKEG3w@mail.gmail.com> <cd2bcf2853684097a3d21fd20742d4ed@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com> <CABFReBqEJu5nBMdJm0cmBuUYhatD+JRCpn7TppC-hgV4HGZ3sQ@mail.gmail.com> <CA+wi2hNOf=UZja29OVDGWJMvULoyJP7Uj_OnZYVakNiX0-59Aw@mail.gmail.com> <CAG4d1rcZnZmbfU3AnLgfCJmOz-dJ0uv8VUZE+BQ9Qq3B=7DgZg@mail.gmail.com> <CA+wi2hNrQV+gyQS_ts-38w2OWYOkTXUy-Q3b0FAGKaztE8D+QQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions-04
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Hi Tony, On 09/02/18 20:04 , Tony Przygienda wrote: > Les has the diff, I'd expect him to publish any minute to the list ... > The encaps was a real defect, the rest is just tightening down the > language/spec where it was too loose/too strict. > > OSPF still needs update with conversion TLV removed, that has been removed already and is NOT anymore in the published version 10. thanks, Peter > same paragraph on > encaps could be useful. I hope Greg pinged Peter ... > > thanks > > tony > > On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 10:58 AM, Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com > <mailto:akatlas@gmail.com>> wrote: > > On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 12:46 PM, Tony Przygienda > <tonysietf@gmail.com <mailto:tonysietf@gmail.com>> wrote: > > Went last nits with Les, we found one issue (encaps section was > wrong, need to look @ OSPF as well) and basically tightened > language in few places. > > > K - please get that out with the details of changes to the list. I > did my AD review back in Oct and looked at the differences before > issuing > IETF Last Call. > > I look forward to reviewing the minor changes. > > Regards, > Alia > > tony > > On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 3:45 PM, Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com > <mailto:gjshep@gmail.com>> wrote: > > Thanks Les. > > Any other feedback? Looks like the concerns have been > addressed. Speak now. > > Cheers, > Greg > > On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 7:26 AM, Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) > <ginsberg@cisco.com <mailto:ginsberg@cisco.com>> wrote: > > Greg –____ > > __ __ > > This thread is outdated.____ > > In V6 of the draft we removed the restriction to limit > IS-IS BIER support to area boundaries – so Toerless’s > comment (and my proposed text) are no longer relevant.____ > > __ __ > > Specifically:____ > > __ __ > > Section 4.1:____ > > __ __ > > “At present, IS-IS support for a given BIER > domain/sub-domain is ____ > > limited to a single area - or to the > IS-IS L2 sub-domain.”____ > > __ __ > > The above text was removed.____ > > __ __ > > Section 4.2____ > > __ __ > > o BIER sub-TLVs MUST NOT be included when a prefix > reachability____ > > advertisement is leaked between levels.____ > > __ __ > > Was changed to____ > > __ __ > > o BIER sub-TLVs MUST be included when a prefix > reachability____ > > advertisement is leaked between levels.____ > > __ __ > > This aligns IS-IS and OSPF drafts in this regard.____ > > __ __ > > Les____ > > __ __ > > *From:*Greg Shepherd [mailto:gjshep@gmail.com > <mailto:gjshep@gmail.com>] > *Sent:* Thursday, February 01, 2018 2:23 AM > *To:* Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de <mailto:tte@cs.fau.de>> > *Cc:* Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) <ginsberg@cisco.com > <mailto:ginsberg@cisco.com>>; Tony Przygienda > <tonysietf@gmail.com <mailto:tonysietf@gmail.com>>; > Hannes Gredler (hannes@gredler.at > <mailto:hannes@gredler.at>) <hannes@gredler.at > <mailto:hannes@gredler.at>>; bier@ietf.org > <mailto:bier@ietf.org>; isis-wg@ietf.org > <mailto:isis-wg@ietf.org> list <isis-wg@ietf.org > <mailto:isis-wg@ietf.org>>; Christian Hopps > <chopps@chopps.org <mailto:chopps@chopps.org>> > > > *Subject:* Re: [Bier] WGLC: > draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions-04____ > > __ __ > > Have these changes been reflected in the draft? We're in > WGLC but this discussion needs to come to a conclusion > so we can progress. ____ > > __ __ > > Greg____ > > __ __ > > On Tue, Jul 25, 2017 at 12:52 PM, Toerless Eckert > <tte@cs.fau.de <mailto:tte@cs.fau.de>> wrote:____ > > Thanks, Less, that would be lovely! > > I didn't check the OSPF draft, if its similar state, > explanatory text wold equally be appreciated.____ > > > On Sun, Jul 23, 2017 at 11:28:08PM +0000, Les > Ginsberg (ginsberg) wrote: > > Toerless - > > > > I am thinking to add a statement in Section 4.1 - > something like: > > > > "At present, IS-IS support for a given BIER > domain/sub-domain is limited to a single area - or > to the IS-IS L2 sub-domain." > > > > If you believe this would be helpful I will spin > a new version (subject to review/agreement from my > co-authors). > > > > Les > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Toerless Eckert [mailto:tte@cs.fau.de > <mailto:tte@cs.fau.de>] > > > Sent: Saturday, July 22, 2017 6:34 AM > > > To: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) > > > Cc: Tony Przygienda; Hannes Gredler > (hannes@gredler.at <mailto:hannes@gredler.at>); Greg > Shepherd; > > > bier@ietf.org <mailto:bier@ietf.org>; > isis-wg@ietf.org <mailto:isis-wg@ietf.org> list; > Christian Hopps > > > Subject: Re: [Bier] WGLC: > draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions-04 > > > > > > Thanks Les > > > > > > When searching various terms in the doc to > figure out what happens i am not > > > sure why i missed this one. > > > > > > But: IMHO, RFCs can not only be the minimum > number of words to get a > > > running implementation. It also needs to > specify what this implementation > > > intends to achieve. Otherwise its not possible > to do a useful review: > > > The reviewer can to verify whether the spec > will achieve what it claims to > > > achieve is there no definitionn of what it > claims to achieve. > > > > > > If i understand ISIS correctly, my reverse > engineering of the intent is: > > > > > > - BIER TLVs stay within single ISIS areas. BFIR > and BFER must therefore be > > > in the same ISIS area: There is no inter-area > BIER traffic possible > > > with this specification. This is also true > for ISIS area 0. > > > > > > - The same BIER sub-domain identifiers can be > re-used > > > across different ISIS areas without any > current impact. If these BFR-IDs > > > are non-overlapping, then this would allow in > the future to create a single > > > cross ISIS area BIER sub-domain by leaking > TLVs for such a BIER sub-domain > > > across ISIS levels. Leakage is outside the > scope of this specificication. > > > > > > I actually even would like to do the following: > > > > > > - If BIER sub-domains are made to span multiple > ISIS areas and BFR-ids > > > assignemtns > > > are made such that all BFR-ids with the same > SI are in the same ISIS ara, > > > then it should be in the future reasonably > easy to create inter-area BIER > > > not by leaking of the BIER TLV but by having > BFIR MPLS unicastBIER packets > > > for different SIs to an appropriate L2L1 BFIR > that is part of the destination > > > area/SI. > > > (if you would use SI number that are the same > as ISIS area numbers then > > > you could probably do this without any new > signaling. Not quite sure if > > > you can today easily find L1L2 border router > for another area via existing > > > TLVs). > > > > > > Alas, this idea will probably be killed > because of the BIER architecture > > > intent not to engineer SI assignments in > geographical fashions to > > > minimize traffic duplication in the presence > of multiple SIs. > > > > > > Cheers > > > Toerless > > > > > > On Sat, Jul 22, 2017 at 06:03:53AM +0000, Les > Ginsberg (ginsberg) wrote: > > > > Tony/Toerless ??? > > > > > > > > There is an explicit statement as to scope: > > > > > > > > <snip> > > > > Section 4.2 > > > > ??? > > > > o BIER sub-TLVs MUST NOT be included when > a prefix reachability > > > > advertisement is leaked between levels. > > > > <end snip> > > > > > > > > Tony seems to have forgotten that we had a > discussion about how BIER > > > might be supported across areas and the > conclusion was we did not know > > > how to do that yet. > > > > (Sorry Tony) > > > > > > > > Note this is ???consistent??? with > https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-bier- > <https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-bier-> > > > ospf-bier-extensions-07.txt Section > 2.5<https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf- > <https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-> > > > > bier-ospf-bier-extensions-07.txt%20Section%202.5> - > which limits the > > > flooding scope of BIER information to a single > area unless it can be validated > > > that the best path to the prefix with BIER info > can be validated to be to a > > > router which itself advertised the BIER info. > This is not something IS-IS can do > > > since a single IS-IS instance only supports one > area and therefore does not > > > have the Level-1 advertisements of the > originating router when that router is > > > in another area. > > > > > > > > A few more responses inline. > > > > > > > > From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org > <mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf Of Tony > Przygienda > > > > Sent: Friday, July 21, 2017 5:17 AM > > > > To: Toerless Eckert > > > > Cc: Hannes Gredler (hannes@gredler.at > <mailto:hannes@gredler.at>); Greg Shepherd; > bier@ietf.org <mailto:bier@ietf.org>; > > > > isis-wg@ietf.org <mailto:isis-wg@ietf.org> > list; Christian Hopps > > > > Subject: Re: [Bier] WGLC: > draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions-04 > > > > > > > > Terminology is a bit nits IMO since the doc > is reading clear enough for > > > someone who read BIER & ISIS. I can reread it > or Les can comment whether > > > we should tighten glossary ... > > > > > > > > With the scope I agree, that got lost and the > doc should be possibly rev'ed > > > before closing LC. Yes, we flood AD wide was > the agreement but something > > > mentioning that this could change in the future > is good so we are forced to > > > give it some thought how that would transition ... > > > > > > > > Thinking further though, in ISIS we have a > clean document really. The BIER > > > sub-TLVs go into well defined TLVs in terms of > flooding scope. Normal L1-L2 > > > redistribution can be used to get the info to > all needed places AFAIS. So > > > maybe nothing needs to be written. I wait for > Les to chime in. > > > > > > > > OSPF I would have to look @ scopes again & > think whether we need to > > > write something or maybe Peter can comment ... > > > > > > > > --- tony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Jul 21, 2017 at 8:27 AM, Toerless Eckert > > > <tte@cs.fau.de > <mailto:tte@cs.fau.de><mailto:tte@cs.fau.de > <mailto:tte@cs.fau.de>>> wrote: > > > > Sorry, past the two weeks, but hopefully > benign textual comments: > > > > > > > > We tried to find an explicit statement about > the scope of BIER TLVs - eg: > > > > are they meant to stay within an area, have > some redistribution across > > > > areas/levels or not. > > > > > > > > Tony said WG agreement was to have these TLV > be flooded across the > > > > whole ISIS domain for now (this draft). So an > explicit statement to that > > > effect would > > > > be great (All BIER sub-domains TLVs are > flooded across all ISIS areas/levels, > > > so they span the whole ISIS domain). > > > > > > > > Also, if future work may/should could improve > on that maybe some > > > > sentence about that (i guess one could just > have ISIS intra-area BIER sub- > > > domains ?). > > > > > > > > Also: Do a check about possible ambiguity of > any generic terms like > > > sub-domain, level, area, topology so that > reader that don't know the > > > terminology ofall protocols (ISIS, BIER) by > heart can easily know which > > > protocol is referred to. > > > > > > > > [Les:] There is no mention of ???level??? in > the document. > > > > The use of ???sub-domain??? is clearly always > associated with ???BIER???. > > > > ???topology??? is always used as an RFC 5120 > topology ??? therefore > > > clearly an IS-IS topology. > > > > There is only one use of the term ???area??? > (in Section 5.1). That text > > > might deserve a bit of clarification given this > might be either a Level 1 area or > > > the Level2 sub-domain. I???ll take a pass at it. > > > > (BTW ??? I am talking about IS-IS > area/L2sub-domain Toerless. ???) > > > > > > > > I don???t see that any other clarification is > needed ??? but Toerless ??? if > > > you can point to any specific > sentences/paragraphs which you find confusing > > > - I???ll take a second look. > > > > > > > > Les > > > > > > > > > > > > I guess there are no BIER level, area or > topologies, but still makes > > > > reading easier if the doc would say "ISIS > level", "ISIS area", or at > > > > least have them in the Terminology section. > And probably in > > > > terminology say "domain -> in the context of > this document the BIER > > > domain which is also the same as the ISIS domain" > > > > (which i hope is the correct statement, see > above). > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > Toerless > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > BIER mailing list > > > > BIER@ietf.org > <mailto:BIER@ietf.org><mailto:BIER@ietf.org > <mailto:BIER@ietf.org>> > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > We???ve heard that a million monkeys at a > million keyboards could > > > produce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, > thanks to the Internet, > > > we know that is not true. > > > > ???Robert Wilensky > > > > > > -- > > > --- > > > tte@cs.fau.de <mailto:tte@cs.fau.de>____ > > __ __ > > > > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org <mailto:BIER@ietf.org> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >
- [Isis-wg] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions-04 Greg Shepherd
- Re: [Isis-wg] [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-isis-e… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [Isis-wg] [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-isis-e… Tony Przygienda
- Re: [Isis-wg] [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-isis-e… Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)
- Re: [Isis-wg] [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-isis-e… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [Isis-wg] [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-isis-e… Tony Przygienda
- Re: [Isis-wg] [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-isis-e… Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)
- Re: [Isis-wg] [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-isis-e… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [Isis-wg] [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-isis-e… Greg Shepherd
- Re: [Isis-wg] [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-isis-e… Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)
- Re: [Isis-wg] [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-isis-e… Greg Shepherd
- Re: [Isis-wg] [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-isis-e… Greg Shepherd
- Re: [Isis-wg] [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-isis-e… IJsbrand Wijnands (iwijnand)
- Re: [Isis-wg] [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-isis-e… Tony Przygienda
- Re: [Isis-wg] [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-isis-e… Greg Shepherd
- Re: [Isis-wg] [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-isis-e… Tony Przygienda
- Re: [Isis-wg] [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-isis-e… Alia Atlas
- Re: [Isis-wg] [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-isis-e… Alia Atlas
- Re: [Isis-wg] [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-isis-e… Tony Przygienda
- Re: [Isis-wg] [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-isis-e… Greg Shepherd
- Re: [Isis-wg] [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-isis-e… Tony Przygienda
- Re: [Isis-wg] [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-isis-e… Tony Przygienda
- Re: [Isis-wg] [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-isis-e… IJsbrand Wijnands
- Re: [Isis-wg] [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-isis-e… IJsbrand Wijnands
- Re: [Isis-wg] [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-isis-e… Peter Psenak
- Re: [Isis-wg] [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-isis-e… Peter Psenak
- Re: [Isis-wg] [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-isis-e… Acee Lindem (acee)
- Re: [Isis-wg] [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-isis-e… Tony Przygienda
- Re: [Isis-wg] [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-isis-e… Acee Lindem (acee)
- Re: [Isis-wg] [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-isis-e… IJsbrand Wijnands
- Re: [Isis-wg] [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-isis-e… Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)
- Re: [Isis-wg] [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-isis-e… Tony Przygienda
- Re: [Isis-wg] [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-isis-e… IJsbrand Wijnands
- Re: [Isis-wg] [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-isis-e… Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)
- Re: [Isis-wg] [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-isis-e… IJsbrand Wijnands
- Re: [Isis-wg] [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-isis-e… Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)
- Re: [Isis-wg] [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-isis-e… Tony Przygienda
- Re: [Isis-wg] [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-isis-e… Peter Psenak
- Re: [Isis-wg] [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-isis-e… IJsbrand Wijnands
- Re: [Isis-wg] [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-isis-e… Acee Lindem (acee)
- Re: [Isis-wg] [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-isis-e… Eric C Rosen
- Re: [Isis-wg] [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-isis-e… Tony Przygienda
- Re: [Isis-wg] [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-isis-e… Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)
- Re: [Isis-wg] [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-isis-e… Tony Przygienda
- Re: [Isis-wg] [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-isis-e… Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)
- Re: [Isis-wg] [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-isis-e… Tony Przygienda
- Re: [Isis-wg] [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-isis-e… Xiejingrong