Re: [Isis-wg] [netmod] FW: New Version Notification for draft-litkowski-netmod-isis-cfg-00.txt

Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com> Thu, 19 June 2014 19:55 UTC

Return-Path: <akatlas@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: isis-wg@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: isis-wg@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C4CC1A02FA; Thu, 19 Jun 2014 12:55:50 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.399
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_15=0.6, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KAnH8B6GNllW; Thu, 19 Jun 2014 12:55:47 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-yh0-x234.google.com (mail-yh0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c01::234]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 325F91A0302; Thu, 19 Jun 2014 12:55:47 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-yh0-f52.google.com with SMTP id a41so2111172yho.11 for <multiple recipients>; Thu, 19 Jun 2014 12:55:46 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=/0p7tGwB1K7AFsxmsvy9Zq+rWBKwx/n/5g+oRB/S9gI=; b=S6AGVueHL8GgEGiOSNwGDv4x2BHmJo20o0YogO6cBqBRohFOfCLHymCZxlOyJ2MpMJ Q3WWPoH3r1eXJAqJkwXBB4AWqHQotXmaP+dHOZ+VW0JY5nOCgUIlPJvZ7CQoD0WluPsa QtSYS1eZ16dIlm5W8Yp8g9+CPC/hkRGkc+pC84KDLs/AW2kFOSDm9siHiE0hBOd/Wzi8 SENveaq+xldEoA+2GberYt3OYKSwrVokGUGr4yrnZK+Kse/s/aJasVRiX7ZKMpOImZZU 5PtzfZb0vJx0zBqqNpyc5H4WSn1bI3aklHg52GljpG5qvsa1h5yfdexXXbF6Q3h+HW1H DuZQ==
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Received: by 10.236.103.135 with SMTP id f7mr11132355yhg.102.1403207746421; Thu, 19 Jun 2014 12:55:46 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.170.58.10 with HTTP; Thu, 19 Jun 2014 12:55:46 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <CABCOCHRaf_mg1tAzWhKQtyRH6hXD2mo-pjUfJSRYqw2SXqMHjw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20140617122005.10875.31180.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <24554_1403016065_53A05381_24554_4972_1_9E32478DFA9976438E7A22F69B08FF920215BB@OPEXCLILM34.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <9D8A1B46-C3AB-4592-810A-2636320697AD@nic.cz> <15719_1403079084_53A149AC_15719_5687_1_9E32478DFA9976438E7A22F69B08FF92021AC0@OPEXCLILM34.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <20140618083011.GB6055@elstar.local> <CAG4d1rd_OS+zZiOJy-v=DYoJ3rrwY0O9N5BEushab5qXegPXzA@mail.gmail.com> <00a001cf8bdc$0bdc80e0$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> <CABCOCHRaf_mg1tAzWhKQtyRH6hXD2mo-pjUfJSRYqw2SXqMHjw@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2014 15:55:46 -0400
Message-ID: <CAG4d1rdQ9aOrogQv=c_rPkazWTHFExjwrhxFQxn0GN6tkRJTbg@mail.gmail.com>
From: Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11332a2e458ad704fc35c3f8
Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/isis-wg/eEorhQVlbOK6rR6gbLLPkD8LKXU
Cc: "isis-wg@ietf.org list \(isis-wg@ietf.org\)" <isis-wg@ietf.org>, "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>, Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, "t.petch" <ietfc@btconnect.com>
Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] [netmod] FW: New Version Notification for draft-litkowski-netmod-isis-cfg-00.txt
X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group <isis-wg.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/isis-wg>, <mailto:isis-wg-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/isis-wg/>
List-Post: <mailto:isis-wg@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:isis-wg-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg>, <mailto:isis-wg-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2014 19:55:50 -0000

Tom,

I agree with Andy.  Benoit and I have spoken about the best plan to enable
good fast YANG models and it is critical
to have the subject matter experts working on it and getting the structure
and knobs right.  That is where a lot of the
work is.  The hope is that YANG-doctors will provide the necessary advice.

If it proves too hard and that only specific experts in YANG can write good
useful models, that'll be a problem for the technology.

Alia


On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 1:06 PM, Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com> wrote:

>
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 9:31 AM, t.petch <ietfc@btconnect.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Alia Atlas" <akatlas@gmail.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2014 6:26 PM
>>
>> > isis-wg is the right place.
>>
>> Alia
>>
>> In a year or two, I expect that I would agree with you but right now,
>> the netmod WG has only just produced the basic models and in doing so,
>> found the need for some necessary modifications to YANG; and, in the
>> past 18 months, radically changed (IMO) the layout of most modules, to
>> the twin trees, cfg and state approach.
>>
>> Give a year or two's experience of writing modules and there will
>> doubtless be guidelines on what to do and what not to do, but right now,
>> I think that the active involvement of the netmod group is essential.
>>
>>
> I do not see config vs. operational subtrees as a major architecture
> change.
> The expansion of functionality needs to be done with clue. Supporting
> pre-provisioning and protocol controlled operational state may require
> a separate tree, depending on the data model. IMO this should not a generic
> solution.
>
> The guidelines are bound to change the more standard functionality we addl
> This should not slow down WGs using the existing functionality.
>
>
>
>> I propose a three part approach; start in netmod to get the current
>> thinking of how to tackle common problems (the sort of things that Lada
>> has addressed although I disagree with him over the use of TLV - that is
>> how isis does things:-)
>>
>>
> The problem with this approach is that the NETMOD WG is a "plain old" WG,
> with a charter to produce YANG 1.1 and other documents.  It is not
> chartered
> to be the YANG Help Desk for the IETF. That is YANG Doctors' job.
>
> It does not really scale well either (as we have seen from several YANG
> proposals
> that are waiting years to get chartered). NETMOD is already a bottleneck.
> IMO, NETMOD should work on YANG 1.1, YANG Conformance,
> and YANG Usage Guidelines.  It is time for domain-specific WGs to
> work on YANG modules for their protocols.
>
>
>
> Then move to isis to get technicalities of the protocol correct, what to
>> model, what is config, defaults, etc
>>
>>
> A YANG Doctor (Lada) will help the isis WG.
> The proper YANG usage is actually much easier to achieve than agreeing
> on the exact text of every single protocol knob (by a mile),.
> The protocol experts pay attention to the protocol WGs, not NETMOD.
> Their review is easily missed if all YANG work is done in NETMOD.
>
>
> Then back to netmod to see that it still aligns with netmod best
>> practice (which likely will have moved on)
>>
>>
> This will happen as part of the AD review process.
> I don't think YANG best practices are changing so rapidly that rewrites
> will be required.
> We will see wrt/ I2RS and YANG 1.1, but that should not affect any WG that
> wants to standardize YANG configuration data models with YANG 1.0.
>
>
>
>
>> Tom Petch
>>
>>
>
> Andy
>
>
>
>> > Alia
>> >
>> >
>> > On Wed, Jun 18, 2014 at 4:30 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder <
>> > j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
>> >
>> > > On Wed, Jun 18, 2014 at 08:11:24AM +0000,
>> stephane.litkowski@orange.com
>> > > wrote:
>> > > > Hi Lada,
>> > > >
>> > > > For sure ISIS WG need to be involved, for ownership of the draft,
>> I
>> > > don't really know which WG need to be "owner". Maybe chairs can
>> provide
>> > > their feedback or we could discuss this point in Toronto.
>> > > > I'm would like to present this first version in both WG if
>> possible.
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > > As a general principle, I prefer that data models are done in the
>> WGs
>> > > that understand what is being modeled. Hence, this work should
>> ideally
>> > > be done in the ISIS WG.
>> > >
>> > > Since I am not following the ISIS WG myself, I ended up looking at
>> the
>> > > WG charter page in order to get a clue what they are working on and
>> > > what I found is that apparently their milestones have not been
>> updated
>> > > since 2009 (and the additional page pointed to in the charter,
>> > > <http://skat.usc.edu/~tli/Schedule.htm>, does not look more recent
>> > > either). So it remains somewhat difficult to judge whether ISIS may
>> be
>> > > able to pick up this work.
>> > >
>> > > /js
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
>> > > Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany
>> > > Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > netmod mailing list
>> > > netmod@ietf.org
>> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
>> > >
>> >
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> --------
>>
>>
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > netmod mailing list
>> > netmod@ietf.org
>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
>> >
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> netmod mailing list
>> netmod@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
>>
>
>