Re: [Isis-wg] New Version Notification for draft-ginsberg-isis-te-app-03.txt

"Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com> Wed, 28 June 2017 07:23 UTC

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From: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
To: "stephane.litkowski@orange.com" <stephane.litkowski@orange.com>, "Peter Psenak (ppsenak)" <ppsenak@cisco.com>, "isis-wg@ietf.org" <isis-wg@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Isis-wg] New Version Notification for draft-ginsberg-isis-te-app-03.txt
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Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2017 07:23:36 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] New Version Notification for draft-ginsberg-isis-te-app-03.txt
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Stephane -

> -----Original Message-----
> From: stephane.litkowski@orange.com
> [mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com]
> Sent: Monday, June 26, 2017 3:04 AM
> To: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg); Peter Psenak (ppsenak); isis-wg@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] New Version Notification for draft-ginsberg-isis-te-app-
> 03.txt
> 
> Honestly, telling nothing leaves ambiguity.
> Here is an example:
> "A second bit mask is for non-
>    standard User Defined Applications(UDAs)."
> 
> This could mean that UDA are only for non-standard apps which is not the
> case.

[Les:] Actually, this IS exactly the case. :-)

Something which is standardized MUST follow all of the normative statements defined for that application. In this case that includes use of the application bit assigned for it by IANA.

Having a user defined application which looks and acts like a standardized application EXCEPT for ... isn't something which falls under the IETF purview.
It is either a buggy/non-interoperable implementation of a standardized application - or it is something else - take your pick.

   Les



> 
> I do not see any trouble in adding a sentence that states clearly that standard
> apps MAY use UDA bits.
> 
> Brgds,
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) [mailto:ginsberg@cisco.com]
> Sent: Friday, June 23, 2017 09:11
> To: LITKOWSKI Stephane OBS/OINIS; Peter Psenak (ppsenak); isis-
> wg@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] New Version Notification for draft-ginsberg-isis-te-app-
> 03.txt
> 
> Stephane -
> 
> I do understand what you have asked for - please understand my point.
> 
> If something is outside the scope of the specification then the specification
> MUST NOT: infer, recommend, suggest, imply, or otherwise comment...
> 
> The specification has provided support for advertising User Defined Apps -
> you can use this space as you wish without violating the specification. And
> someone else can use the space in a way different than you choose to do -
> and they also will not be violating the specification.
> 
>    Les
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: stephane.litkowski@orange.com
> > [mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2017 11:58 PM
> > To: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg); Peter Psenak (ppsenak); isis-wg@ietf.org
> > Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] New Version Notification for
> > draft-ginsberg-isis-te-app- 03.txt
> >
> > My point is not to tell what to do with UDAs. It is to tell that
> > standard applications MAY not use standard bits.
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) [mailto:ginsberg@cisco.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2017 16:36
> > To: LITKOWSKI Stephane OBS/OINIS; Peter Psenak (ppsenak); isis-
> > wg@ietf.org
> > Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] New Version Notification for
> > draft-ginsberg-isis-te-app- 03.txt
> >
> > Stephane -
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: stephane.litkowski@orange.com
> > > [mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com]
> > > Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2017 12:15 AM
> > > To: Peter Psenak (ppsenak); Les Ginsberg (ginsberg);
> > > isis-wg@ietf.org
> > > Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] New Version Notification for
> > > draft-ginsberg-isis-te-app- 03.txt
> > >
> > > Hi Peter,
> > >
> > > Thanks for your feedback, few comments inline
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Peter Psenak [mailto:ppsenak@cisco.com]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 10:08
> > > To: LITKOWSKI Stephane OBS/OINIS; Les Ginsberg (ginsberg); isis-
> > > wg@ietf.org
> > > Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] New Version Notification for
> > > draft-ginsberg-isis-te-app- 03.txt
> > >
> > > Hi Stephane,
> > >
> > > On 21/06/17 09:42 , stephane.litkowski@orange.com wrote:
> > > > Hi Les,
> > > >
> > > > The proposal has a better shape. Still two comments:
> > > > - As mentioned earlier, please precise that LFA means any flavor
> > > > of LFA
> > > (LFA,rLFA,dLFA,TILFA...).
> > >
> > > I would just say any flavor of LFA. Not all LFA types are defined in
> > > IETF documents.
> > > [SLI] I agree, "any flavor" works
> > >
> > > > - I would also like to see that "standard" applications may also
> > > > use UDAs
> > > instead of the standard bit and possibility two sets of attributes
> > > (two UDAs or
> > > 1 std + 1 UDA): one example could be having an SR-TE tunnel using a
> > > particular set of attributes, and another SR-TE tunnel using another
> > > set of attributes.
> > >
> > > nobody is preventing you to do that. You can map any application to
> > > a UDA bits.
> > >
> > > [SLI] Yes, but nothings tells that it is also allowed. I just want
> > > this point to be clear in the text.
> > >
> > [Les:] The draft explicitly states that the use of UDA bits is outside
> > the purview of any standards body. It would be unwise - and
> > contradictory - to then start specifying how UDA bits can/cannot be
> > used. The whole point of UDA is that it is up to the user to decide what the
> bits mean.
> >
> > You clearly have some ideas about how you want to use them - but it is
> > not the role of any specification to comment on your ideas any more
> > than anyone else's ideas.
> >
> > I think it is necessary for the draft to remain silent in this area.
> >
> >    Les
> >
> > >
> > > thanks,
> > > Peter
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Brgds,
> > > >
> > > > Stephane
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Isis-wg [mailto:isis-wg-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Les
> > > > Ginsberg (ginsberg)
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 16:30
> > > > To: isis-wg@ietf.org
> > > > Subject: [Isis-wg] FW: New Version Notification for
> > > > draft-ginsberg-isis-te-app-03.txt
> > > >
> > > > Folks -
> > > >
> > > > This new version adds support for using a set of link attribute
> > > advertisements for ANY application - something which the OSPF
> > > companion draft (draft-ppsenak-ospf-te-link-attr-reuse) supports.
> > > > It also aligns the encoding so that is similar to that defined in
> > > > the OSPF
> > > draft.
> > > >
> > > >      Les
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org [mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org]
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 7:17 AM
> > > > To: Wim Henderickx; Stefano Previdi; Peter Psenak (ppsenak); Les
> > > > Ginsberg (ginsberg)
> > > > Subject: New Version Notification for
> > > > draft-ginsberg-isis-te-app-03.txt
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > A new version of I-D, draft-ginsberg-isis-te-app-03.txt has been
> > > successfully submitted by Les Ginsberg and posted to the IETF repository.
> > > >
> > > > Name:		draft-ginsberg-isis-te-app
> > > > Revision:	03
> > > > Title:		IS-IS TE Attributes per application
> > > > Document date:	2017-06-20
> > > > Group:		Individual Submission
> > > > Pages:		15
> > > > URL:            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ginsberg-isis-te-
> > app-
> > > 03.txt
> > > > Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ginsberg-isis-te-app/
> > > > Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ginsberg-isis-te-app-03
> > > > Htmlized:       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ginsberg-isis-
> te-
> > > app-03
> > > > Diff:           https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ginsberg-isis-te-app-
> 03
> > > >
> > > > Abstract:
> > > >     Existing traffic engineering related link attribute advertisements
> > > >     have been defined and are used in RSVP-TE deployments.  In cases
> > > >     where multiple applications wish to make use of these link attributes
> > > >     the current advertisements do not support application specific values
> > > >     for a given attribute nor do they support indication of which
> > > >     applications are using the advertised value for a given link.
> > > >
> > > >     This draft introduces new link attribute advertisements which address
> > > >     both of these shortcomings.  It also discusses backwards
> > > >     compatibility issues and how to minimize duplicate advertisements in
> > > >     the presence of routers which do not support the extensions defined
> > > >     in this document.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
> > > submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at
> tools.ietf.org.
> > > >
> > > > The IETF Secretariat
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Isis-wg mailing list
> > > > Isis-wg@ietf.org
> > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
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> __________________________________________________________
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> >
> __________________________________________________________
> > > _____
> > >
> > > Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations
> > > confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre
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> >
> >
> __________________________________________________________
> >
> __________________________________________________________
> > _____
> >
> > Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations
> > confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses,
> > exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message
> > par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi
> > que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles
> > d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere,
> deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
> >
> > This message and its attachments may contain confidential or
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> 
> 
> __________________________________________________________
> __________________________________________________________
> _____
> 
> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations
> confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites
> ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez
> le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les
> messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute
> responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
> 
> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged
> information that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed,
> used or copied without authorisation.
> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete
> this message and its attachments.
> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been
> modified, changed or falsified.
> Thank you.