Re: [Isis-wg] I-D Action:draft-ietf-isis-layer2-05.txt

"Victor Moreno (vimoreno)" <vimoreno@cisco.com> Wed, 05 May 2010 21:46 UTC

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From: "Victor Moreno (vimoreno)" <vimoreno@cisco.com>
To: david.i.allan@ericsson.com
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Cc: isis-wg@ietf.org, "Martina Beitat (mbeitat)" <mbeitat@cisco.com>, "Ben Basler (bbasler)" <bbasler@cisco.com>, "Luyuan Fang (lufang)" <lufang@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] I-D Action:draft-ietf-isis-layer2-05.txt
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Hi David,

 

The intent is to open the technology for broad implementation and with
it the addressable market and vendor opportunity. In this vein, the goal
is to avoid overlap in the future use of the TLV/codepoint space by
having the ISIS WG's use of these TLVs formally documented, fully
disclosed and (hopefully) acknowledged/agreed upon. 

 

Rather than seeing an early implementation as a competitive threat, I
would look at it as an opportunity to capitalize on the existing ramp-up
investment/learning curve and reduce your time to market, costs and
overall risk of a solution like OTV. 

 

It is important that there is an authoritative registry of TLVs and
codepoints so that conflicts are avoided. I think as a WG that can be
achieved and it is far from useless information. 

 

There is a draft submitted explaining what to do with these TLVs for
OTV. If it is not satisfactory, it can be improved, but that is a task
for a different WG. The request from the ISIS WG is simple: document the
TLVs/codepoints formally and in a timely manner. In the same way as OTV
leverages TLVs that were originally conceived for TRILL, there is
potential for the additional TLVs to play in other solutions beyond OTV.
So beyond this tactical argument, my opinion is that these TLVs could be
strategically generalized and therefore belong in the WG.

 

We are coming to the WG because the TLVs will be used in a shipping
implementation, they are being disclosed to the community and this
information needs to be discussed and documented. Mine is but one
opinion, it is ultimately up to the WG, but we are disclosing
information that has an impact on future activities in the ISIS space. I
would think the WG wants to do the right thing and accommodate for
progress and innovation while maintaining control of the TLV and
codepoint allocation landscape.

 

Regards,

 

-v

 

From: David Allan I <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>

Date: May 5, 2010 4:58:47 AM PDT

To: "Dhananjaya Rao (dhrao)" <dhrao@cisco.com>, "isis-wg@ietf.org"
<isis-wg@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] I-D Action:draft-ietf-isis-layer2-05.txt

 

Hi Dhananjaya:

I'm not sure what you are clarifiying...other than this is a proprietary
technology and you want to document it in standards. Fine, there is a
process, which to date has been circumvented. 



The motivation for standardization is to broaden the addressable market
for a technology. But when I look at this situation and your remarks as
a competitor, what I see is:

1) You already have at least an 18 month implementation lead on any
competitior, anyone choosing to build this starting now would likely be
3 years behind you by the time they could ship product. Under the
circumstances I doubt ANYONE is rushing out to interoperate with you.



2) You seem to think your proprietary technology should appear in a
standards track document providing you with the alleged cachet of peer
review and ultimately a real RFC to point to. IMO that is a significant
marketing advantage as it produces the illusion of it being an industry
initiative when in fact it isn't. Ironically all it WILL be is a
meaningless information schema. There is no guarantee a document will
exist that will ever tell you what to do with it, except by mining
expired drafts, which means it is not really a living technology. What
IANA would reference in allocating the code points is a good question.



3) If the WG actually requires demonstrated interoperability to get to
RFC, for the reasons outlined in 1 the rest of us likely will be held up
waiting for you to produce a competitor. And when there is no standards
track document defining WHAT to do with the TLVs, what constitutes
interoperability?




So WHY the IETF should grant you a fast track to broadening the
addressable market for your proprietary technology, allow OTV to gate
process for legitimate standards initiatives, and dignifying OTV as if
it was a product of the IETF completely escapes me. Why you should think
this draft is an appropriate vehicle to document a part of your
proprietary technology is either incredibly naieve or incredibly
disingenuous...

 


Meanwhile the rest of us expect a level playing field...


My 2 cents
D


-----Original Message-----
From: isis-wg-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:isis-wg-bounces@ietf.org] On
Behalf Of Dhananjaya Rao (dhrao)
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 6:45 PM
To: isis-wg@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] I-D Action:draft-ietf-isis-layer2-05.txt



Hi folks,

We're just catching up on the discussions on the mailing list regarding
the L2 IS-IS draft-ietf-isis-layer2-04.txt. As the authors of OTV, we'd
like to clarify any doubts or concerns regarding the extensions used by
OTV.

Briefly, OTV uses the L2 IS-IS extensions being defined to provide a
solution for interconnecting datacenter networks. An I-D describing the
solution has been recently published at
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hasmit-otv-00.

OTV shares along with TRILL/802.1aq several of the PDU/TLVs that have
been defined in this draft. There are of course a few additional
sub-TLVs defined specifically for OTV:

- A couple of hello extensions to advertise L2 site membership and
 capabilities.
- A group membership sub-TLV to advertise multicast source information.

The solution is already being deployed in several enterprise networks
and a final product with this solution is shipping soon. Given the
multiple technologies using L2 IS-IS, we'd like to ensure the extensions
and codepoints are published in a common document to aid interoperable
implementations.

Please let us know if you have any questions.

Thanks,
-Dhananjaya (for the authors)





 

	A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line
Internet-Drafts 

	directories.

	This draft is a work item of the IS-IS for IP Internets Working
Group 

	of the IETF.

	 

	 

	          Title           : Extensions to IS-IS for Layer-2
Systems

	          Author(s)       : A. Banerjee, et al.

	          Filename        : draft-ietf-isis-layer2-05.txt

	          Pages           : 60

	          Date            : 2010-04-30

	 

	This document specifies the IS-IS extensions necessary to
support 

	multi-link IPv4 and IPv6 networks, as well as to provide true
link 

	state routing to any protocols running directly over layer 2.
While 

	supporting this concept involves several pieces, this document
only 

	describes extensions to IS-IS.  We leave it to the systems using
these 

	IS-IS extensions to explain how the information carried in IS-IS
is 

	used.

	 

	A URL for this Internet-Draft is:

	
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-isis-layer2-05.txt

	 

	Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:

	ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

	 

	Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader


	implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of
the 

	Internet-Draft.

	 

	
<ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-isis-layer2-05.txt>

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