Re: [ipwave] FCC Moves Plan Forward to Chop Up Vehicle Safety Airwaves
Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> Wed, 18 December 2019 10:06 UTC
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To: Jérôme Härri <Jerome.Haerri@eurecom.fr>, 'Abdussalam Baryun' <abdussalambaryun@gmail.com>
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From: Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [ipwave] FCC Moves Plan Forward to Chop Up Vehicle Safety Airwaves
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Le 17/12/2019 à 16:23, Jérôme Härri a écrit : > Dear All, > > Sorry, wrong link..it was a presentation.. > > But here is the paper: > > http://www.eurecom.fr/fr/publication/5191/detail/can-ieee-802-11p-and-wi-fi-coexist-in-the-5-9ghz-its-band Jérôme, Thanks for the pointer to that article of 2017. Its introductory parts are no short of predicting what is happening now with the FCC plan in the 5850-5895MHz band for WiFi and OCB. The paper seems to suggest a WiFi-OCB co-existence solution backed by cognitive radio concept and simulation. Are there implementations of the WiFi-OCB co-existence in the same band? Is there a demonstrator showing that WiFi with BSS and WiFi in OCB mode can live together ok in same band? A packet dump would be illustrative. The IPv6-over-OCB draft makes a MUST to use QoS Data headers. Would IPv6-over-WiFi-with-BSS also be a MUST to use such headers? Alex > > BR, > > Jérôme > > -----Original Message----- From: Jérôme Härri <haerri@eurecom.fr> > Sent: Tuesday, 17 December 2019 16:09 To: 'Alexandre Petrescu' > <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>; 'Abdussalam Baryun' > <abdussalambaryun@gmail.com> Cc: 'its' <its@ietf.org> Subject: RE: > [ipwave] FCC Moves Plan Forward to Chop Up Vehicle Safety Airwaves > > Dear All, > > We did a study a few months ago related to the coexistence between > WiFi and OCB on the same channel. Please find it here: > > http://www.eurecom.fr/fr/publication/5395/detail/coexistence-challenges-between-rlans-and-etsi-its-g5-at-5-9ghz-for-future-connected-vehicles > > John Kenney and his team also make a similar study as well... > > The methods have slightly changed since this publication, but > problems would still occur: which technology should 'vacate' in case > of interferences? As far as I understood, OCB still is the > primary..but I leave other expert to correct this statement if I am > wrong, > > BR, > > Jérôme > > -----Original Message----- From: its <its-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf > Of Alexandre Petrescu Sent: Tuesday, 17 December 2019 15:45 To: > Abdussalam Baryun <abdussalambaryun@gmail.com> Cc: its > <its@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [ipwave] FCC Moves Plan Forward to Chop > Up Vehicle Safety Airwaves > > > > Le 17/12/2019 à 15:29, Abdussalam Baryun a écrit : >> I think IEEE defines WLAN as IEEE802.11. so any IEEE802.11xx >> standard can be called a WLAN standard. http://www.ieee802.org/11/ > > Right. > > And a channel in the 2.4GHz band (WLAN) can not be linked with a > channel in the 5.9GHz band (WLAN) because the former is ran with a > BSS whereas the latter is Outside the Context of a BSS (OCB). As > such it is impossible to realize the FCC claim to provide cutting > edge high throughput bandwidth ("the Commission proposes to designate > the lower 45 megahertz of the band for unlicensed uses like Wi-Fi. > This 45 megahertz sub-band can be combined with existing unlicensed > spectrum to provide cutting-edge high-throughput broadband > applications on channels up to 160 megahertz wide.") > > So if FCC wants to run WiFi with a BSS in this 5875-5895MHz band, > such as to legitimately call it WiFi, and to achieve high throughput, > then it can only be in mode with a BSS, and it can not be in mode > without a BSS (OCB). > >> also IEEE defines WMAN as IEEE802.16 technology, which was replaced >> by LTE cellular technology. > > There is indeed a similarity. > > But 802.16 is more different than 802.11 than 802.11-OCB is different > than 802.11. > > 802.16 runs in licensed and paid spectrum (one has to acquire i.e. > pay money to get) whereas 802.11-OCB one does not have to buy > spectrum. > > There are other stronger differences I think. > >> >> AB >> >> On Tue, Dec 17, 2019 at 3:54 PM Alexandre Petrescu >> <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com >> <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>> wrote: >> >> >> >> Le 17/12/2019 à 14:40, Abdussalam Baryun a écrit : >>> V2X and V2V communications had two design proposals: >>> >>> 1- using WLAN technology 2- using Cellular network technology >>> >>> So we worked on the first in this WG. >> >> OCB is not the typical WLAN - it is 802.11 in mode OCB. One cant >> link OCB channels to non-OCB channels (typical WiFi) such as to >> make very large channel widhts they seem to need. >> >> >> in frequency yes > > In practice: how do you think it is possible to link together two > channels one from 5.4GHZ WiFi and one from 5.9GHz OCB? > > I think for my part of the 'iw' command. That allows to link > together two channels, by specifying the channel width: 10MHz, 20MHz, > etc. But they must be adjacent in the first places. > > And one cant do that linking to create a channel that is in part OCB > and in part non-OCB. Light can be wave and particle but channel cant > be both OCB and with BSS. > >> >> I think FCC wants much parts of the 5.9GHz for WLAN (not OCB) and >> other parts for C-V2X. >> >> FCC is pushing for 5G services/qualities to be achieved. > > It is a good goal that I share entirely. But dont invade other > goals. > >> I think it may depend on locations/regions, because some locations >> may not have good cellular communication signals. > > FCC does not talk about locations or regions. > > But I do agree with you on the principle. I talked recently to a > highway operator complaining about the lack of 3G 4G feasibility on > their roads. >> >> >> I think the FCC question is whether or not to keep the >> 5895-5905MHz for DSRC or to give that too to C-V2X; that is the >> only question they formulate. >> >> >> I agree, they are pushing for that, >> >> >> That channel is a place where FCC hardly allowed for IPv6 in the >> first place. Even in this WG it was often said that IPv6 is not >> for that channel. >> >> I think there is no place for OCB mode anywhere and even less for >> IPv6. >> >> >> we never know what will happen tomorrow. > > BUt we cant work without a solid basis. > > Alex > >> >> AB >> >> >> Alex >>> >>> On Tue, Dec 17, 2019 at 12:58 PM Alexandre Petrescu >>> <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com >> <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> >> <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com >> <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>>> wrote: >>> >>>> https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/DOC-361339A1.pdf >>> >>>> For Immediate Release FCC SEEKS TO PROMOTE INNOVATION IN >> THE 5.9 GHZ >>>> BAND WASHINGTON, December 12, 2019—The Federal Communications >>>> Commission today voted[...] >>> >>> What does C in C-V2X mean? Is it Cellular V2X like in 3GPP? >> I assume >>> this is what is meant by C-V2X: point-to-point links from 3GPP. >>> >>> Yes, there are 4G and 5G >>> >>> Or is C-V2X something more like BSM messages put on 802.11 >> kind of link >>> (be it OCB or more traditional WiFi)? >>> >>> >>> no it is cellular network communication technologies/protocols >>> >>> >>> What does C-V2X mean entirely? Is it sending BSM messages or >> is it also >>> sending CAM messages (in 3GPP there are only CAM messages >> AFAIremember). >>> >>> What are the implementations of C-V2X and on which hardware >> from which >>> manufacturer? >>> >>> >>> see our draft mentions c-v2x: >>> >>> >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-03# >> >> page-19 >> >> >> >> >>> I think it is important that we do more work for the C-V2X >> section in >>> the draft as well. >>> >>> >>> Detailing this term is key to understand the plan and to be >> able to >>> answer the consultation. It might be very worrisome as well >> as it might >>> be nothing new but a change in terms. >>> >>> >>> The C-V2X is challenging with WiFi V2X, it depends on what is >>> mostly used by countries, but the WiFi is probably will win. >>> >>> AB >>> >>> >> > > _______________________________________________ its mailing list > its@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its >
- [ipwave] FCC Moves Plan Forward to Chop Up Vehicl… Russ Housley
- Re: [ipwave] FCC Moves Plan Forward to Chop Up Ve… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [ipwave] FCC Moves Plan Forward to Chop Up Ve… Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: [ipwave] FCC Moves Plan Forward to Chop Up Ve… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [ipwave] FCC Moves Plan Forward to Chop Up Ve… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [ipwave] FCC Moves Plan Forward to Chop Up Ve… Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: [ipwave] FCC Moves Plan Forward to Chop Up Ve… Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: [ipwave] FCC Moves Plan Forward to Chop Up Ve… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [ipwave] FCC Moves Plan Forward to Chop Up Ve… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [ipwave] FCC Moves Plan Forward to Chop Up Ve… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [ipwave] FCC Moves Plan Forward to Chop Up Ve… Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: [ipwave] FCC Moves Plan Forward to Chop Up Ve… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [ipwave] FCC Moves Plan Forward to Chop Up Ve… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [ipwave] FCC Moves Plan Forward to Chop Up Ve… Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: [ipwave] FCC Moves Plan Forward to Chop Up Ve… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [ipwave] FCC Moves Plan Forward to Chop Up Ve… Jérôme Härri
- Re: [ipwave] FCC Moves Plan Forward to Chop Up Ve… Jérôme Härri
- Re: [ipwave] FCC Moves Plan Forward to Chop Up Ve… Alexandre Petrescu
- [ipwave] Commenting on the FCC plan (was: Re: FCC… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [ipwave] Commenting on the FCC plan (was: Re:… Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: [ipwave] Commenting on the FCC plan Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [ipwave] Commenting on the FCC plan Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [ipwave] Commenting on the FCC plan Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: [ipwave] Commenting on the FCC plan Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [ipwave] Commenting on the FCC plan Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [ipwave] Commenting on the FCC plan Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [ipwave] Commenting on the FCC plan Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [ipwave] Commenting on the FCC plan Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: [ipwave] Commenting on the FCC plan fygsimon@gmail.com
- Re: [ipwave] Commenting on the FCC plan Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [ipwave] Commenting on the FCC plan Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [ipwave] Commenting on the FCC plan Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [ipwave] Commenting on the FCC plan Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [ipwave] Commenting on the FCC plan Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [ipwave] Commenting on the FCC plan Chris Shen
- Re: [ipwave] Commenting on the FCC plan, and a no… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [ipwave] Commenting on the FCC plan, and a no… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [ipwave] Commenting on the FCC plan - related… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [ipwave] Commenting on the FCC plan - related… Alexandre Petrescu