Return-Path: X-Original-To: jmap@mail2.ietf.org Delivered-To: jmap@mail2.ietf.org Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail2.ietf.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E165A12C1997E for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2026 01:30:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=ietf.org; s=ietf1; t=1787128248; bh=BOaflvU4+K2Y/ekHq1ImHg55N7dj1mvsuyLX1Luo5LI=; h=From:Subject:Date:References:To:In-Reply-To; b=vByAuajm/jOpRb1BVX54ddfcsm7NULiDQb4bkt2ymzbIOetJL08lbbMClO9xTu+BC jgM2KU5GgPnGa0YQqRTTwaERgs39GktMke2XH3csrX1zSjfZ3cJG6Dyui3pLHfRsKr ZFuWtweDfxZTB/maV/TGEY8gsygjqqz92PLapiko= X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at ietf.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_RPBL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_SAFE_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: mail2.ietf.org (amavisd-new); dkim=neutral reason="invalid (unsupported algorithm ed25519-sha256)" header.d=stalw.art header.b="xKGvWHtz"; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stalw.art header.b="Q312qoM8" Received: from mail2.ietf.org ([166.84.6.31]) by localhost (mail2.ietf.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1iHUEJVoOQOu for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2026 01:30:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.stalw.art (mail.stalw.art [135.181.195.209]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature ECDSA (P-256) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mail2.ietf.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A5CEF12C19975 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2026 01:30:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=ed25519-sha256; s=v1-ed25519-20260717; d=stalw.art; c=relaxed/relaxed; r=y; h=Message-Id:To:Date:Subject:From; t=1787128240; bh=BOaflvU4+K2Y/ekHq1ImHg5 5N7dj1mvsuyLX1Luo5LI=; b=xKGvWHtz6PM+GKsi9WLE0d3vml0/UaFO4z9SEwkBV6vtG+1tNa TDtXLHjLT6R4N2SwqLl3JpgG31AB4gKc3GAA==; DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=v1-rsa-20260717; d=stalw.art; c=relaxed/relaxed; r=y; h=Message-Id:To:Date:Subject:From; t=1787128240; bh=BOaflvU4+K2Y/ekHq1ImHg5 5N7dj1mvsuyLX1Luo5LI=; b=Q312qoM8v2JaICIEDpZbouVCUYg6y9owdJ1/EK9gCFLQgrW5h/ wX18EIKnF8awwsBua2a/NVzkGnxmMe2X0wSfvkotWqHuTC1qE8o5PTunYUDOs4aPjbapOO6+6BP uQ0jno1T2m3AFSEZVfaIdme4+bSXnHI+7gCRBfowJ3r0Wzdebz3JBMJcx28W7iYvDquPqVi654S IIixVg9IJr22BRk7kkgR3o4+uabMk6kFAz2GbgnyH/jKLPudRsxi+w0NQUb/Hat3bWrZkQAVdYb qR5hzFMeyumvV1WlSE+K3oH+F3/RQdJhFZQ+ProTrQG9DhAWlF3Clmwjg/gY0qE1esA==; Message-Instance: m=1; h=sha256:jbswQEUC8GHccPCJXhKUOEQFRCvy/aybAQAjWTQu WMc=:BOaflvU4+K2Y/ekHq1ImHg55N7dj1mvsuyLX1Luo5LI=; DKIM2-Signature: i=1; m=1; t=1787128240; d=stalw.art; mf=PG1hdXJvQHN0YWx3 LmFydD4=; rt=PGptYXBAaWV0Zi5vcmc+; s=v2-ed25519-20260704:ed25519-sha256: +gjW4r9yTVYfocEUF4/8VVrhXSUEMVlTa4lgzQcRtZbtdknH4mggG+9sXL3wkaeNzML+YNOP oqkHK6KbR8pvBA==; From: Mauro De Gennaro Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3864.600.51.1.1\)) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2026 10:30:29 +0200 References: <30db2f7d-4978-4e2b-8123-768b7e0aeda0@mail.infomaniak.com> <3b7b9aa1-b51f-4aa9-ae32-a69e55f3803c@app.dogfood.fastmail.com> To: JMAP IETF In-Reply-To: <3b7b9aa1-b51f-4aa9-ae32-a69e55f3803c@app.dogfood.fastmail.com> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3864.600.51.1.1) Message-ID-Hash: RM33UROWWBCA5VVEPT4JH6QTCWP6R3V2 X-Message-ID-Hash: RM33UROWWBCA5VVEPT4JH6QTCWP6R3V2 X-MailFrom: mauro@stalw.art X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-jmap.ietf.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.9rc6 Precedence: list Subject: =?utf-8?q?=5BJMAP=5D_Re=3A_=5CDeleted_=26_EXPUNGE_semantics_between_IMAP_and?= =?utf-8?q?_JMAP?= List-Id: JSON Meta Access Protocol Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: >> I looked at how existing servers handle this: >> - Stalwart seems to defer everything to EXPUNGE >=20 > That sounds buggy to me =E2=80=94 you'd see it as deleted in IMAP but = still present over JMAP? Stalwart does not conform to the MUST NOT in RFC 8621 Section 4.1.1, for = three reasons: 1) The JMAP change log is shared with the IMAP QRESYNC/CONDSTORE change = log. A message that is deleted (and expunged) appears both in the IMAP = VANISHED response and in Email/changes under "destroyed." 2) A message with a \Deleted flag that doesn't exist in JMAP breaks the = JMAPACCESS extension, since OBJECTID does not support EMAILID NIL (this = won't be an issue with OBJECTID+, though). 3) An IMAP client toggling the \Deleted flag on and off multiple times = would require the server to generate multiple unique JMAP email IDs, = plus add delete/insert entries to the JMAP /changes log, which in my = opinion is wasteful. Instead, Stalwart exposes the $deleted flag to JMAP clients. I'd argue = that a well-behaved IMAP client will set the \Deleted flag and shortly = after EXPUNGE those messages, so the window during which this $deleted = flag is visible to JMAP clients is very brief. Best, Mauro