Re: [jose] Stephen Farrell's Discuss on draft-ietf-jose-json-web-algorithms-33: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> Tue, 07 October 2014 02:55 UTC
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From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
To: John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>
Thread-Topic: [jose] Stephen Farrell's Discuss on draft-ietf-jose-json-web-algorithms-33: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2014 02:54:16 +0000
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Cc: "draft-ietf-jose-json-web-algorithms@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-jose-json-web-algorithms@tools.ietf.org>, "jose-chairs@tools.ietf.org" <jose-chairs@tools.ietf.org>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, "jose@ietf.org" <jose@ietf.org>, Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
Subject: Re: [jose] Stephen Farrell's Discuss on draft-ietf-jose-json-web-algorithms-33: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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> -----Original Message----- > From: John Bradley [mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com] > Sent: Monday, October 06, 2014 3:36 PM > To: Mike Jones > Cc: Stephen Farrell; The IESG; jose-chairs@tools.ietf.org; jose@ietf.org; draft- > ietf-jose-json-web-algorithms@tools.ietf.org > Subject: Re: [jose] Stephen Farrell's Discuss on draft-ietf-jose-json-web- > algorithms-33: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) > > The reference for key lengths is SP-800-57 > http://csrc.nist.gov/publications/nistpubs/800-57/sp800- > 57_part1_rev3_general.pdf Thanks for this reference, John. I'll plan to use it where the 2048 bit requirement is specified. > Note table 2 lists 80 bits of security for RSA k=1025 and ECC f=160-233 and 112 > bits for RSA k=2048 and ECC f=224-255 > > Table 4 lists 80 bits as being disallowed for applying while it may still be used for > legacy use processing. > 112 bits is acceptable to 2030 (if we are lucky). > > There is no real legacy use of JOSE so starting at 112 bits seemed reasonable. > (Depending on a number of factors this should be a minimum depending on how > long you want to have integrity over verifying the signatures.) > > John B. > > > > > On Oct 6, 2014, at 4:54 AM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> > wrote: > > > Thanks for your review, Stephen. I've included the working group on the > thread so they're aware of your comments. > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Stephen Farrell [mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie] > >> Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2014 3:37 AM > >> To: The IESG > >> Cc: jose-chairs@tools.ietf.org; draft-ietf-jose-json-web- > >> algorithms@tools.ietf.org > >> Subject: Stephen Farrell's Discuss on draft-ietf-jose-json-web-algorithms-33: > >> (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) > >> > >> Stephen Farrell has entered the following ballot position for > >> draft-ietf-jose-json-web-algorithms-33: Discuss > >> > >> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > >> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut > >> this introductory paragraph, however.) > >> > >> > >> Please refer to > >> http://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > >> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > >> > >> > >> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > >> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-jose-json-web-algorithms/ > >> > >> > >> > >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> - > >> DISCUSS: > >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> - > >> > >> > >> Sorry to pile on, but I guess such a detailed and broad piece of work > >> is likely to attract many comments and discusses. > >> Mine should be cleared up easily enough I hope. > >> > >> (1) 6.3.2.7: Hmm, where was that discussed on the list? I think it'd > >> be better if >2 prime RSA was considered a separate algorithm. (I > >> vaguely recall some IPR with such moduli for some uses too, but not > >> sure.) I'd recommend dropping the whole "oth" parameter entirely. > >> (I'll clear this discuss once its clear that this was discussed by > >> the WG, I just want to check as I don't recall it.) > > > > This was discussed in the thread "private keys, leading zeros" initiated by > James Manger on August 15, 2012. (Sorry, I can't get you the archive URL > reference at present because I'm writing this offline on an airplane over the > Pacific.) It was also discussed as issue #153. This feature was directly modelled > on RFC 3447. Applications are free to profile the JWK spec to prohibit the use of > such keys, so I don't see a compelling case to remove it. > > > >> (2) Instructions to DEs: would registering DES be considered ok or > >> not? What about myJustInventedPrivateAlg? What about a request for > >> 10 ccTLD specific Algs? I think these need a bit more clarity wrt > >> cryptographic "goodness." As a nit, "makes sense" isn't going to help > >> too much, we've seen that reasonable folks can differ on that here. > >> Again I don't recall that discussion on the list, but please point me at it if it > happened. > > > > Registering DES with the Implementation Requirements value "Prohibited" > would be permitted. The instructions on the "JOSE Implementation > Requirements" registry field include: > > Any identifiers registered for non-authenticated encryption algorithms > > or other algorithms that are otherwise unsuitable for direct use > > as JWS or JWE algorithms must be registered as "Prohibited". > > > > Note that this capability was added at the request of the W3C WebCrypto WG. > (WebCrypto is choosing to support some algorithms that JOSE explicitly chose > not to, including some non-authenticated encryption algorithms.) "Deprecated" > is also a value available to registrants and the DEs. > > > > If you want to supply additional proposed language to the DEs, that would be > welcomed. > > > >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> - > >> COMMENT: > >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> - > >> > >> > >> - Unlike others, I do think implementation requirements are needed. > >> The WG did specifically discuss this (a lot) and landed where it did. > >> I don't think the IESG should second guess that without specific evidence that > it'd cause damage. > >> (Richard's points were made previously I believe.) > > > > I concur with your synopsis of the discussion that occurred in the working > group and the conclusions reached. > > > >> - 3.3 (and elsewhere) says 2048 bits or larger. I guess that > >> 2049 bit keys might not work for many implementations and are not a > >> great idea (as Bleichenbacher works quicker against such lengths if I > >> recall correctly). Could be worth a note somewhere even though I guess most > folks know what's what. > > > > Rather than us inventing new text, is there an RFC or other doc we can > reference that provides appropriate guidance on acceptable RSA key lengths? I > know that the 2048 came from NIST key usage requirements that I believe ekr > pointed us to. > > > >> - 4.1 (and elsewhere): adding table captions with numbers would be good. > > > > I don't feel strongly about this, but each table is in its own section, and so can > be referenced by section number. I'd experimented with adding captions at one > point and it just seemed to take up additional vertical space without making the > spec clearer. But I could be convinced otherwise. Why do you want captions? > > > >> Col 1 of the final 3 rows are unfortunate. > > > > I don't know how to teach xml2rfc to not do what it did to the final 3 rows, but > I can make a note to have the RFC editor manually address this if the tool can't. > > > >> - Surprised there was no need for integer DH. Can be added later I guess. > > > > No one has previously asked about it. But there registry will be there for it to > be added, if wanted/needed. > > > >> - 6.2.1: Given that the point compression IPR is now expired > >> (right?) did the WG consider now allowing that? I wondered how much > >> work it would be to add now, vs to add later. If "later" would cause > >> a lot of duplication, then maybe "now" > >> would actually be worth it. ("Later" might also be fine considering > >> the current work in CFRG on additional curves.) > > > > I recall that in the discussions, people were happier having a single > representation than multiple representations. Given the curve discussions, that's > also another reason I'd opt for "later". > > > >> - 6.3.1.1: allowing the extra 0x00 would be a better choice IMO, but > whatever. > >> Those were historically added so that buggy decoders wouldn't wrongly > >> think numbers negative, which could still happen maybe. > > > > Yeah, I realize why the Java library does this. This was another case where we > decided that having a single representation would create less interop problems > down the road than allowing multiple representations. > > > >> - 7.1, 2nd para: why not RSA2048 earlier then? > > > > I don't actually recall. I think the two choices reasonably available to us at this > point are to either keep or delete this paragraph. Which would you prefer? > > > >> - 7.1.1: It might help the DE if the template here required > >> references to well know academic crypto conference publications that > >> consider cryptanalysis of the alg in question, e.g. from crypto, or > >> eurocrypt etc. One good rule of thumb here is that if there are no > >> such references then you really should not register the thing. > > > > Good idea. > > > >> - 8.3: Is 65537 considered a "low" e? "Low" is too vague there. > > > > No, it's not "low", but I can't back that up with a reference off the top of my > head. Working group, what are the relevant documents here that we could > reference for this information? > > > >> - 8.5: I'd prefer there was no none. The WG did discuss it though, so > >> I'll hold my nose. > > > > Understood. > > > >> - 8.6: suggesting a CA as a cure for oversized keys is odd, I think > >> those are separable things and e.g. TOFU might be just as or more > >> effective then X.509 here. > > > > Sean Turner suggested adding that text on July 6, 2012. Proposed edits would > be welcomed. > > > >> - Appendix A: Thanks for that! It'll save folks a lot of time. Might > >> be better presented as a set of records and not as a fixed width table. > > > > You're welcome! > > > > I'll plan to work with the RFC Editor to figure out how to best present it and > how to achieve that. I agree that the presentation is screwed up right now. > > > >> - I think most of the secdir stuff has been handled (and thanks for > >> that) so I'm fine that the authors and AD are on top of that. > > > > Thanks again for your review and your participation in the working group. > > > > -- Mike > > > > _______________________________________________ > > jose mailing list > > jose@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/jose
- Re: [jose] Stephen Farrell's Discuss on draft-iet… Mike Jones
- Re: [jose] Stephen Farrell's Discuss on draft-iet… Jim Schaad
- Re: [jose] Stephen Farrell's Discuss on draft-iet… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [jose] Stephen Farrell's Discuss on draft-iet… John Bradley
- Re: [jose] Stephen Farrell's Discuss on draft-iet… Mike Jones
- Re: [jose] Stephen Farrell's Discuss on draft-iet… Mike Jones
- Re: [jose] Stephen Farrell's Discuss on draft-iet… Mike Jones
- Re: [jose] Stephen Farrell's Discuss on draft-iet… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [jose] Stephen Farrell's Discuss on draft-iet… Brian Campbell
- Re: [jose] Stephen Farrell's Discuss on draft-iet… Mike Jones
- Re: [jose] Stephen Farrell's Discuss on draft-iet… Mike Jones
- Re: [jose] Stephen Farrell's Discuss on draft-iet… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [jose] Stephen Farrell's Discuss on draft-iet… Mike Jones
- Re: [jose] Stephen Farrell's Discuss on draft-iet… Mike Jones