Re: [jose] JWS Counter Signatures

Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com> Fri, 23 November 2018 17:37 UTC

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From: Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>
To: 'Anders Rundgren' <anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com>, <jose@ietf.org>
References: <12DD2F97-80C3-4606-9C6B-03F7A4BF19DE@gmail.com> <CAOASepNX4aYVmPWXyODn0E2Om_rimACPECqJBvZSOXVVd_p8LA@mail.gmail.com> <D21F3A95-0085-4DB7-A882-3496CC091B34@gmail.com> <CAOASepM=hB_k7Syqw4+b7L2vd6E_J0DSAAW0mHYdLExBZ6VBuw@mail.gmail.com> <00ad01d460f4$69ae8a00$3d0b9e00$@augustcellars.com> <8436AEE7-B25A-4538-B8F6-16D558D9A504@gmail.com> <MEAPR01MB35428606C09BF315DE04CC79E5E10@MEAPR01MB3542.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com> <CAHbuEH6DCD7Zc+PK3TnCBkKv1esnROwyCcDb8ZR+TKwgQQ+yXQ@mail.gmail.com> <0E6BD488-74D5-4640-BC31-5E45B0531AFC@gmail.com> <CAHbuEH5oH-Km6uAjrSr0pEHswFBLuDpfVweQ+gpj472yk+8iTQ@mail.gmail.com> <073CB50F-8D91-4EF6-90BE-FC897D557AA6@oracle.com> <A37D69B1-6B77-4E11-8BB9-A0209C77752C@tzi.org> <434fbdb6-0202-5a02-4cec-9332fbbe548c@gmail.com> <FBBFA6FA-4B0C-4239-9145-0B713120EC98@tzi.org> <01fd01d47f5f$4c4889f0$e4d99dd0$@augustcellars.com> <7b1d293c-1d97-44e4-0cd8-55ec1db6c3b5@gmail.com> <AD2DB2EB-3F06-4C55-94E4-CED60F6FF4CF@alkaline-solutions.com> <222a2534-07fc-a630-99f8-bbe6f6aea29c@g mail.com>
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Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2018 09:37:34 -0800
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Subject: Re: [jose] JWS Counter Signatures
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I am having a potential terminology problem.  When I read the term Counter
Signature, I am used to this meaning that I am signing a signature,
potentially with some additional information.   I am not sure that this is
what you have going on below.  Are these signatures "nested" or "parallel"
or "on the previous signature"?

Jim


> -----Original Message-----
> From: jose <jose-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Anders Rundgren
> Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2018 11:50 PM
> To: jose@ietf.org
> Subject: [jose] JWS Counter Signatures
> 
> Counter signatures were actually the major "inspiration" for Canonical
JSON
> since JWS based dittos are hard to debug and document due to the deep
> nesting of Base64Url encoded objects but it is still fully doable.
> 
> However, in a system which I will present at Trustech 2018, I came up with
a
> counter signature scheme where JOSE simply put ran out of gas.
> 
> https://cyberphone.github.io/doc/payments/payment-decentralization-scheme-
> 1a.pdf
> 
> In this system (very briefly):
> 1. a Merchant creates a Payment Request and sends it to the Payer for
> authorization 2. the Payer authorizes the Payment Request with his/her
> signature key.  The signed authorization data includes a hash of the
Payment
> Request 3. the Payer (for privacy reasons) encrypts the authorization data
and
> returns it to the Merchant together with an unencrypted URL pointing to
the
> Payer's bank 4. the Merchant sends the original Payment Request + the
> encrypted Payer authorization data to the Payer's banks for fulfillment 5.
the
> Payer's bank decrypts and validates the authorization data, including
verifying
> that the hash of the Merchant-supplied Payment Request matches the hash in
> the authorization data
> 
> It seems to me that a JOSE based design would have to be architected in a
> fundamentally different way.
> 
> Anders
> 
> 
> 
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