Re: [jose] JWS Counter Signatures

Anders Rundgren <anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com> Fri, 23 November 2018 17:44 UTC

Return-Path: <anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: jose@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: jose@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D71A31241F6 for <jose@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 23 Nov 2018 09:44:41 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nc-wSgcF5y7o for <jose@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 23 Nov 2018 09:44:38 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail-wr1-x434.google.com (mail-wr1-x434.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::434]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 94DF0130E85 for <jose@ietf.org>; Fri, 23 Nov 2018 09:44:38 -0800 (PST)
Received: by mail-wr1-x434.google.com with SMTP id v6so13074400wrr.12 for <jose@ietf.org>; Fri, 23 Nov 2018 09:44:38 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=X161XBbjl2BsIO16ha8rlzxj/umlk2bH4q3wDxUdkYA=; b=Fu1Kb18gfTbBOJ7UlZxWQYYY5kfQ7E9wifSnujP5kGz+f++9rC/kQeQfLo3JWX5ryD EU+rQNoSkWyZtv41oPxurQYUsVrgKZMEskq4m1YIWG6RAn0Dz1v3VZ+QJcU15m9+BOuS dd/dwJ3Zyw7rz5TxQPxsD5wiBavaVQ9eg2Elc0D0CA6ZBhptRy22YMSfuTJBhwmW9vUQ rlXKnUDIYUhgkSz6kycoRe76+l5Eptm0CPqz4Txk5gz+HpWdXfsMQqqgBv7qNL2zth6a dDw1oWpT1/vEu37s9a8YdsMihp5UW9RjDppeeZzgMq1sYu2c8vu4A0iWceyfkkUJouyh 8H3Q==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=X161XBbjl2BsIO16ha8rlzxj/umlk2bH4q3wDxUdkYA=; b=mE4MRRolJbl3N1ol38g8g6R5o4jJEob7KKeRyYfoXl7MsBDUZGTQyEUX9L4jHPLctx nGsh0Aac5I60iu68D1w03cWGh3jK0YgqdSgluCpynmCkkcvRoPIvIH9uh9/NbG5pIjNo nRzBGpAE2VlyrC5nQynF9tg+n2e093JaSSF8CY7tCreBuJjm7+MA5aVAydgoI6+qyrNh D7/4p8d+L/f33epMdSW7kUZjBuhb53kLjffNc4GszRWTiMhSlX0eIpx5Hv8gVth0IMxJ UtTMU5vYaqMCAqlZRLfvf6qQEyGQrUj4HB0BklhkHSX73+KQ9Tkl+eLrqwaJYUHKbYGE 31xQ==
X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWZv0u9jghMeCZX7Bq+FznwC8iroM0OGmvwquxbZT2GFbD+geEM9 miAvvK+xcqi5xa9+oiYGR81KtmZD
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/XIggNeB9EJL2eNfDMkQK4yEAKAvHPGi9nDZT7qsSR8ZA3zafw3eh1dFU1n05busHKzO7v7gw==
X-Received: by 2002:adf:dbcb:: with SMTP id e11mr12008282wrj.58.1542995076515; Fri, 23 Nov 2018 09:44:36 -0800 (PST)
Received: from [192.168.1.79] (25.131.146.77.rev.sfr.net. [77.146.131.25]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id 60sm29523100wrb.81.2018.11.23.09.44.35 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 23 Nov 2018 09:44:35 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>, jose@ietf.org
References: <12DD2F97-80C3-4606-9C6B-03F7A4BF19DE@gmail.com> <CAOASepM=hB_k7Syqw4+b7L2vd6E_J0DSAAW0mHYdLExBZ6VBuw@mail.gmail.com> <00ad01d460f4$69ae8a00$3d0b9e00$@augustcellars.com> <8436AEE7-B25A-4538-B8F6-16D558D9A504@gmail.com> <MEAPR01MB35428606C09BF315DE04CC79E5E10@MEAPR01MB3542.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com> <CAHbuEH6DCD7Zc+PK3TnCBkKv1esnROwyCcDb8ZR+TKwgQQ+yXQ@mail.gmail.com> <0E6BD488-74D5-4640-BC31-5E45B0531AFC@gmail.com> <CAHbuEH5oH-Km6uAjrSr0pEHswFBLuDpfVweQ+gpj472yk+8iTQ@mail.gmail.com> <073CB50F-8D91-4EF6-90BE-FC897D557AA6@oracle.com> <A37D69B1-6B77-4E11-8BB9-A0209C77752C@tzi.org> <434fbdb6-0202-5a02-4cec-9332fbbe548c@gmail.com> <FBBFA6FA-4B0C-4239-9145-0B713120EC98@tzi.org> <01fd01d47f5f$4c4889f0$e4d99dd0$@augustcellars.com> <7b1d293c-1d97-44e4-0cd8-55ec1db6c3b5@gmail.com> <AD2DB2EB-3F06-4C55-94E4-CED60F6FF4CF@alkaline-solutions.com> <222a2534-07fc-a630-99f8-bbe6f6aea29c@g mail.com> <017701d48353$395f0600$ac1d1200$@augustcellars.com>
From: Anders Rundgren <anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <81c0c196-3d3e-ac43-191b-d51d455e71e1@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2018 18:44:33 +0100
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.3.1
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <017701d48353$395f0600$ac1d1200$@augustcellars.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/jose/U9GtqHPymRKE-qhRX8VwV5OFxto>
Subject: Re: [jose] JWS Counter Signatures
X-BeenThere: jose@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: Javascript Object Signing and Encryption <jose.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/jose>, <mailto:jose-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/jose/>
List-Post: <mailto:jose@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:jose-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/jose>, <mailto:jose-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2018 17:44:42 -0000

On 2018-11-23 18:37, Jim Schaad wrote:
> I am having a potential terminology problem.  When I read the term Counter
> Signature, I am used to this meaning that I am signing a signature,
> potentially with some additional information.   I am not sure that this is
> what you have going on below.  Are these signatures "nested" or "parallel"
> or "on the previous signature"?

Well, it is "sort of" counter signature.  The Payment Request is indeed signed.
Anyway, the core is simply that taking a hash of a JSON object have multiple
applications.

Anders

> 
> Jim
> 
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: jose <jose-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Anders Rundgren
>> Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2018 11:50 PM
>> To: jose@ietf.org
>> Subject: [jose] JWS Counter Signatures
>>
>> Counter signatures were actually the major "inspiration" for Canonical
> JSON
>> since JWS based dittos are hard to debug and document due to the deep
>> nesting of Base64Url encoded objects but it is still fully doable.
>>
>> However, in a system which I will present at Trustech 2018, I came up with
> a
>> counter signature scheme where JOSE simply put ran out of gas.
>>
>> https://cyberphone.github.io/doc/payments/payment-decentralization-scheme-
>> 1a.pdf
>>
>> In this system (very briefly):
>> 1. a Merchant creates a Payment Request and sends it to the Payer for
>> authorization 2. the Payer authorizes the Payment Request with his/her
>> signature key.  The signed authorization data includes a hash of the
> Payment
>> Request 3. the Payer (for privacy reasons) encrypts the authorization data
> and
>> returns it to the Merchant together with an unencrypted URL pointing to
> the
>> Payer's bank 4. the Merchant sends the original Payment Request + the
>> encrypted Payer authorization data to the Payer's banks for fulfillment 5.
> the
>> Payer's bank decrypts and validates the authorization data, including
> verifying
>> that the hash of the Merchant-supplied Payment Request matches the hash in
>> the authorization data
>>
>> It seems to me that a JOSE based design would have to be architected in a
>> fundamentally different way.
>>
>> Anders
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> jose mailing list
>> jose@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/jose
>