Re: [Json] Schema Requirements (Was: Re: Nudging the English-language vs. formalisms discussion forward)

Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com> Thu, 20 February 2014 22:28 UTC

Return-Path: <nico@cryptonector.com>
X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06F281A032E for <json@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 20 Feb 2014 14:28:53 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.378
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.378 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zA1HTfXE6YQo for <json@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 20 Feb 2014 14:28:51 -0800 (PST)
Received: from homiemail-a90.g.dreamhost.com (mailbigip.dreamhost.com [208.97.132.5]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 908E61A0328 for <json@ietf.org>; Thu, 20 Feb 2014 14:28:49 -0800 (PST)
Received: from homiemail-a90.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a90.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3E4A2AC06E for <json@ietf.org>; Thu, 20 Feb 2014 14:28:45 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type; s=cryptonector.com; bh=RD3i3OHADkum4PQemwqR m0DsSLM=; b=bY4HjyqzXUmDAtn3WCwRWwcZkgJzqMi8IX5zOwutyJ/YvhJAgQQ4 7MIjjS7L8GBWxxmuHlvRcHEqj1hxRv4OCpzNEWXpxpXAc4ZMa6hA8lMFwdbRXvUF kpR1jnRNyCXenoBt4dLI4ZgCUyl+7RFXXuvVDeMZboM02LVndeKUnXk=
Received: from mail-wg0-f45.google.com (mail-wg0-f45.google.com [74.125.82.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a90.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9AF7E2AC06A for <json@ietf.org>; Thu, 20 Feb 2014 14:28:45 -0800 (PST)
Received: by mail-wg0-f45.google.com with SMTP id l18so1970803wgh.12 for <json@ietf.org>; Thu, 20 Feb 2014 14:28:44 -0800 (PST)
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=p1BfWtZSA88RzQ0k36YjHei2zKEvw5f67qJw+Vw4PFU=; b=ikv+NjA0H39LJZR0UAfVKiePXeCf4MlOjgJBQGLdi11Gf5/TmZ93vY918XG4UYxWrP /pDHz+wT6yUGheadtVXsh/bALoOOKV17G66Rj+/TN+/fL5MMiaHt0sBQmpOL8vdAaFri OGXpq7tLBY2sXbGIJJwN+aQKiD3LBa0w6pozbTErrXgw6x+pru6N7U3uUqE7qwPQGQ8R sinbg1AFA64j6fu+2AkEJudKxZv2wIz/a4s/NniHG7jvRfCJNKcU/TuscvZpAhiIgB+d G83arK6NKjD6zJDOX2Zx22639dv/8PvkxkLalOrq62Er+VAn4s12Dn4ZLw4LceS0I3aK ACfw==
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Received: by 10.180.97.72 with SMTP id dy8mr495368wib.5.1392935324034; Thu, 20 Feb 2014 14:28:44 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.217.108.132 with HTTP; Thu, 20 Feb 2014 14:28:43 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <7ADB5F59D5FC475CB251FF58797A873A@codalogic>
References: <CAK3OfOiMpfC6-2y7VLhKieuA4HWurDkP7WFQSUqeBu_-XnSmyg@mail.gmail.com> <7ADB5F59D5FC475CB251FF58797A873A@codalogic>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2014 16:28:43 -0600
Message-ID: <CAK3OfOjFo659-MV5kmyNJvEvH=O4aohjf4BLo5t0=t2mhtq1+w@mail.gmail.com>
From: Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com>
To: Pete Cordell <petejson@codalogic.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/3urVNP9EJKnkBbGt57prItL251s
Cc: Phillip Hallam-Baker <hallam@gmail.com>, JSON WG <json@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Json] Schema Requirements (Was: Re: Nudging the English-language vs. formalisms discussion forward)
X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" <json.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/json>, <mailto:json-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/json/>
List-Post: <mailto:json@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:json-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json>, <mailto:json-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2014 22:28:53 -0000

On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 4:24 PM, Pete Cordell <petejson@codalogic.com> wrote:
>> So far so good.  But if you make every type extensible by default,
>> then you're polluting those C structs and the generated code even if
>> mostly you don't need extensibility -- this is the PITA.  IMO
>> extensibility needs to be requested explicitly, but then the problem
>> you run into is people forgetting to do so.
>
> A PITA, true, but not as big a PITA as when somebody forgets it or convinces
> themselves that they're never going to need it.  In my experience change is
> the only constant in data structures!

Maybe so, but then you need to make sure that people don't extend
structures and expect extensions to be critical.  One way or another
you depend on ppl knowing what they're doing when they extend
protocols.  Anyways, I'm convincing myself that this (extensibility,
explicit or implicit) is a minor detail.

Nico
--