Re: [Json] Schemas & so on

Martin J. Dürst <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Sun, 01 May 2016 23:30 UTC

Return-Path: <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE0E112B037 for <json@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sun, 1 May 2016 16:30:33 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.902
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=itaoyama.onmicrosoft.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wNNhe3QCONx8 for <json@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sun, 1 May 2016 16:30:32 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from APC01-SG2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-sg2apc01on0124.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.125.124]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 550CE12D199 for <json@ietf.org>; Sun, 1 May 2016 16:30:31 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=itaoyama.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-it-aoyama-ac-jp; h=From:To:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=AAGwi7U5YsgNE63HUY/UOtGSQEocPfibQs8Ozc/EjgQ=; b=HIkjtAIw1senIuqPrDpphCdryvLlM6QU+4asDmXTAjW1Wlp75a30kTuHZkzcPqdjK5ZorElrxvfSsJyqzeM69zuGljFdplIjLM5/YpwZs/ERANmUxDeYrf2q/9Eq9IkGN09Fqhf9JE2fqFB5pHCeNxa4Q5oGD3h2goxiOAepaPc=
Authentication-Results: ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=it.aoyama.ac.jp;
Received: from [192.168.1.2] (114.182.30.8) by OS2PR01MB0916.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (10.167.178.22) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.485.9; Sun, 1 May 2016 23:30:27 +0000
To: Tim Bray <tbray@textuality.com>, "json@ietf.org" <json@ietf.org>
References: <CAHBU6itCV9MXmALdKtE9-vjUPG6-6ZqdqzrmZkcEzSUysi3S-w@mail.gmail.com>
From: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J._D=c3=bcrst?= <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University
Message-ID: <7a6edf91-30d1-383b-4548-e12b988f9467@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 08:30:23 +0900
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <CAHBU6itCV9MXmALdKtE9-vjUPG6-6ZqdqzrmZkcEzSUysi3S-w@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Originating-IP: [114.182.30.8]
X-ClientProxiedBy: TY1PR06CA0002.apcprd06.prod.outlook.com (10.164.91.12) To OS2PR01MB0916.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (10.167.178.22)
X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 6c657a6c-ffe0-41b9-e9f9-08d3721893ec
X-Microsoft-Exchange-Diagnostics: 1; OS2PR01MB0916; 2:yHeqnujDah69/nr1T7+DdsLZL/3JfNaPPyRtPMPQGRKLe3pri+pHG4TO4xnfTfwWcOd+o8OKjHnvwr+ag6OeJ5PuOXU9YbSoV1U9tS99r3/7QKXkkjnrIuCiTsYXyBOsDuDv5gWykVaQiFTcNFW6MYZc6mRq5MhQCpSkJy8TW6xte9SBDcY4QOo3/HCbI+KE; 3:WbZp8UtpskdfQFk4HY8NraEXI6V7hDq4vKOt25EFCGXb8QfTGWKzhVbgvxn1XnSfkKk7ZgiFBnb6RzXKfc0rM0SgQXRBJWKknRrgMDafup58YdY38M5N2ayLJuvewUVj
X-Microsoft-Antispam: UriScan:;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:OS2PR01MB0916;
X-Microsoft-Exchange-Diagnostics: 1; OS2PR01MB0916; 25: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
X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: <OS2PR01MB091638CCEDBE3635932170D5CA780@OS2PR01MB0916.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com>
X-Exchange-Antispam-Report-Test: UriScan:;
X-Exchange-Antispam-Report-CFA-Test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(9101521072)(6040130)(2401047)(8121501046)(5005006)(3002001)(10201501046)(6041072)(6042046)(6043046); SRVR:OS2PR01MB0916; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:OS2PR01MB0916;
X-Microsoft-Exchange-Diagnostics: 1; OS2PR01MB0916; 4:WASRWb63YnzxE0vTLdh+FkhDjIouIv6Q5eCeEIw2U/2Y857GnCIq/MpL3cVK9b5u2qVR+gLyXd+7W7/iCDx1Lc2z98x1OD3yLcyXS17kUdo6GX1GNf7biWsrNQVoxWIsg7qzuBurhlQgW7V6Cr3WgtIhY6uz5HvaehjcMQYD0T2uehLisJ8TaXE9glFV1AjDcY5T0tjkplUBbUtrWPqTgVfWPZCYQBEYCduCK837Ts+yHlziiwQnvgy7mKdUJmqB0VJUVzRMB0iE+mSFZDnUSeqCDdNPufL0eiO/QpKZ9Um7iIlMUlBkb9fpjeZg1aZ8jqoOZ17fZA4GM04ZNLvfOQDVul/bgf/bBwHir4i8L5rI862foDJiwQnKpjJyjLR+f6oWTPY2XFsH9sBr2lRscE/lXQqfBsjKq3tKDMgFDz2Chjgoy0USm2BsjULkSC72oBRqrKLxdAVJ1ZP30A9JrA==
X-Forefront-PRVS: 0929F1BAED
X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(4630300001)(6049001)(6009001)(24454002)(2870700001)(50466002)(86362001)(83506001)(81166005)(42186005)(92566002)(107886002)(5008740100001)(189998001)(117156001)(2906002)(64126003)(74482002)(33646002)(50986999)(31696002)(47776003)(65806001)(66066001)(65956001)(76176999)(3846002)(6116002)(586003)(5004730100002)(1096002)(4001350100001)(77096005)(2501003)(23676002)(2950100001)(54356999)(5001770100001)(65826006); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:OS2PR01MB0916; H:[192.168.1.2]; FPR:; SPF:None; MLV:sfv; LANG:en;
X-Microsoft-Exchange-Diagnostics: =?utf-8?B?MTtPUzJQUjAxTUIwOTE2OzIzOkt0d1N6VWFzclhzVUVkV1NRdS9ITEpJd21V?= =?utf-8?B?OTZvYmk3aVZIbmQwcEJTV2g2djk4cnhyZVAzVmZ0akJIU2hFRW12UjVWU0ZK?= =?utf-8?B?ZkRDMkFqWFViUDVtcGR0amdlUHNGTStkRnAvNU1WOVdSYXBKMTA3RFMwdjdN?= =?utf-8?B?bkxCVzNEcU5JNld0eWNCRzgyWVVxNVNWRU94djJKTzRKdjJXOGkxTXA5ejJV?= =?utf-8?B?Y1VVVU9vU0xZZFJrNzZueFpjSnFGWUVFWHUrcys4MXM2ZHJQWDZtdHpZMTBj?= =?utf-8?B?SGY1SkdESGowVXhDeU9tZGpMRXYwaEdxM01rdzZlLzNVQWxYVFk5MGVHa2gv?= =?utf-8?B?cVFtb2hXVUxHeWp4c0NIZGNodWkwTWxVSThuYkpIN1RpaEV1a1lybGhma21m?= =?utf-8?B?NmxwclN4UWNyZFRQMzg4bGt0Q3JhOWpCViswZVg3WVlDVEdTNFk5TFBzSWFk?= =?utf-8?B?dUlRQmV5QWF2NWkwMnBKazR1bWVNMllGSjZ6UzZaNnc3ZjREcVJKNCtldlRU?= =?utf-8?B?SVN3V0JjVUp6QzNYRHoyOEl6Yi9yWGZPTkVLcGlyZzB1Z1FZRTlzakt2Q0tz?= =?utf-8?B?Y1ZwOTJCOTFrMEVvMjltRHV0SkwrVXByUThaVlBVTmJ6QVFXUGYrbmNtdnFS?= =?utf-8?B?WEV3MmtpQzM1VEpzNE8wcUVXbWVxd2ROMzhEMFB5WTM3bUdJblR6cXd2TEtK?= =?utf-8?B?c1I0ZjlqdTM1WlVLbVpxNHZFYVRqTkNDbVpmUTdsVFZjQ0t5TVdDSkNsQ2l1?= =?utf-8?B?bDJDUk5vVEZHblRFYXpkWFJJTkVodGJtNkxLMDFIa3hhQVErTUljenlaTnNF?= =?utf-8?B?cEpUdUdRejBqbGVaczNuS0NjYlU4c3dENEdUNzkwRi9PVnNuU2htVm9ZSG9p?= =?utf-8?B?Rktvcnk4ZFhMczdBeldhUlNuc2hiWkY3WHJUOTJFcmlKNmFLVTVza3ZXL1Vz?= =?utf-8?B?c1ZiZWd2d3lIMTBhN3pieER5L001RDZ2cFJTN0ZZcnVUazJodHBJcUV3YjND?= =?utf-8?B?L0FTVWEyVVlZTEhubWVqQXF1d1hUK1NtNmxnNzhPMGNxSEJ6Wm1RK1JYM1l3?= =?utf-8?B?YlJ5bkZ2MXJ2TkVFRFk5bW9DQUM5YS9LVjdySEQ5a2IxN1VQaGZtQStoejQv?= =?utf-8?B?QThGV043S2tkOWlTTC9BRGZNa1JyOWlMeUcyZlhTeU5pcEIxUmdUUmt4REZQ?= =?utf-8?B?TnorZTNOK1lIc2lpRzB2c1NPSlhFZFJpTFRuWEUxajBhelNPMUJqQ05RL2pi?= =?utf-8?B?UnNhVTRNV3h0Y01Oc3Q4c1VVdmtzQzVjVkM4d2tNM1NTSEVoeGJqWnRVWWZl?= =?utf-8?B?ajZsUTlteGx2cVZ5RGZRcTQzZzhlemRrS29ZWVRJMVh1U2FpenRBZ3hNdkdX?= =?utf-8?B?YkZRWWxSNUxhSEVLaHFGekpSSjlxYW1MZ1Q3bTlBPT0=?=
X-Microsoft-Exchange-Diagnostics: 1; OS2PR01MB0916; 5:kBrOUh3SnUTylqo9Fs/3JKT1TmrvUKLRZsNuwnjL/sXcvupP8h0FPrlUu2wH9czyHxXZxQFt+3Sa4Y6VZt80+gtrl9fZ2eTsMPnbtkiaeZPnz2FqsVoks0nczMMrvCxg32TZ/JuZ4hI0rDTjONYD2Q==; 24:vJtWoioRvbYgV+aYkRylWGXt/8Cn3eK8ZDcLy17e9uYMlKxLQzeW+p5Zz6Gq4OTMnx5XeMDGcSskT5IavA3anDVs7iXBukdXVIxYbwwZsS8=; 7:ZxUryjFkYsEwuP6ErGjKXfEYWTyAjSqL//Gd6E2VmfcFrEKRBv/e8kuB+qy9PTHDqEFaghgDtyhDRbeHS96O4a6DkC+slZRy3BHBMd7gRFKP4A8b4BsZRwgH89OKvKBWM7BcLAga0kGt7QYaM146dEuJ1VRphnTZgd9QjDsSIF4/wsF0T2VCQLUxuGRWeZNc
SpamDiagnosticOutput: 1:23
SpamDiagnosticMetadata: NSPM
X-OriginatorOrg: it.aoyama.ac.jp
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 May 2016 23:30:27.4993 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: OS2PR01MB0916
Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/CtyfvrEyXsbbaIFK07Aoj-r8Gio>
Subject: Re: [Json] Schemas & so on
X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17
Precedence: list
List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" <json.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/json>, <mailto:json-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/json/>
List-Post: <mailto:json@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:json-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json>, <mailto:json-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 May 2016 23:30:34 -0000

Hello Tim,

On 2016/05/02 05:55, Tim Bray wrote:
> I find myself tasked with specifying a JSON-based DSL and preparing it for
> public release, with a validator and so on.
>
> I had never really concerned myself much with options for JSON language
> definition, but have discovered they’re not very good.  The JSON Schema
> project is not terribly appealing - opaque spec, poor documentation and
> tools - and smells of neglect (last I-D expired in 2013).  It's been
> suggested that a good approach would be just to write a jq program that
> emits true or false.
>
> Is there good conventional wisdom about formally specifying a JSON dialect?

Sorry for playing the devil's advocate, but asking the same for XML 
would give a lot of different opinions. I wouldn't expect the schema 
landscape (if it developed) to be much different, because there's a 
large span between simplicity and expressiveness that can be covered, 
and a lot of notational choices.

In addition to that, many people use JSON because they don't want to use 
XML (if they don't have any actual experience, they at least heard that 
it's somehow "problematic", and that often extends to schemata). So the 
JSON's users tendency seems to be to try and avoid schemata.

Regards,   Martin.