Re: [Json] Consensus on JSON-text (WAS: JSON: remove gap between Ecma-404 and IETF draft)
Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com> Mon, 02 December 2013 22:48 UTC
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Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2013 16:48:06 -0600
From: Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com>
To: Phillip Hallam-Baker <hallam@gmail.com>
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Cc: Tim Berners-Lee <timbl@w3.org>, IETF Discussion <ietf@ietf.org>, JSON WG <json@ietf.org>, Alex Russell <slightlyoff@google.com>, Tim Bray <tbray@textuality.com>, "Matt Miller (mamille2)" <mamille2@cisco.com>, "www-tag@w3.org" <www-tag@w3.org>, es-discuss <es-discuss@mozilla.org>
Subject: Re: [Json] Consensus on JSON-text (WAS: JSON: remove gap between Ecma-404 and IETF draft)
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On Mon, Dec 02, 2013 at 04:30:09PM -0500, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: > Since we are talking about a serialization format, the distinction between > unordered sets and lists cannot occur at the wire level and this is where > we need interoperation. But it can be part of the on-the-wire description. See below. > One of the things I think we have learned from JSON is that a > self-describing format only needs to specify the abstract type of the datum > and not the representation. Self-description is a continuum. Some ASN.1 encoding rules can encode quite a bit of a schema on the wire -- clearly there's a point at which the resulting redundancy causes problems. But it's also true that having a large subset of the schema in the serialization can be useful (e.g., for generic "dump" tools). Given the prevalence of languages like Python, a "set" type will no doubt seem useful to some! Heck, the ability to use non-string values as keys (names) for objects would be nice too -- anyone who's spent much time with Python and JSON has wished for these things. JSON alone is insufficiently expressive for "pickling" Python values; JSON with a fair bit of convention layered on gets closer to being good enough for pickling Python values. Context will affect how much of the schema you or I will find desirable to see appear redundantly on the wire. But mostly I agree with you: "datetime" and such are interpretations of more basic datatypes, and so they belong in pre-agreed/documented schema rather than on the wire. Indeed, datetime/timestamp could be either strings or numeric, and still be understood correctly in context. > There are many data encodings on offer but I would like to be able to write > one decoder that can consume a data stream that contains basic JSON data > and JSON with extensions. This makes negotiating an encoding in a Web > service easy, the consumer states which encodings are acceptable and the > sender makes sure what is sent is compatible, downgrading the encoding to > the level accepted if necessary. Yes. Though, really, the main thing that's missing is chunked (indefinite-length) unescaped binary data. That's the thing that's difficult/expenside to deal with in JSON (or XML, for that matter). Bulk data transfers do matter. (And if one is going to add that to any serialization, then plain binary-coded integers and IEEE754 doubles may be much better, perf-wise, than decimal encodings.) Nico --
- Re: [Json] JSON: remove gap between Ecma-404 and … Paul Hoffman
- Re: [Json] JSON: remove gap between Ecma-404 and … Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)
- Re: [Json] JSON: remove gap between Ecma-404 and … Carsten Bormann
- Re: [Json] JSON: remove gap between Ecma-404 and … Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)
- Re: [Json] JSON: remove gap between Ecma-404 and … Tony Hansen
- Re: [Json] JSON: remove gap between Ecma-404 and … Paul Hoffman
- Re: [Json] JSON: remove gap between Ecma-404 and … Allen Wirfs-Brock
- Re: [Json] JSON: remove gap between Ecma-404 and … Carsten Bormann
- Re: [Json] JSON: remove gap between Ecma-404 and … Joe Hildebrand
- Re: [Json] JSON: remove gap between Ecma-404 and … Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)
- Re: [Json] JSON: remove gap between Ecma-404 and … Paul Hoffman
- Re: [Json] JSON: remove gap between Ecma-404 and … John Cowan
- Re: [Json] JSON: remove gap between Ecma-404 and … Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)
- Re: [Json] JSON: remove gap between Ecma-404 and … Mark Davis ☕
- Re: [Json] JSON: remove gap between Ecma-404 and … John Cowan
- Re: [Json] JSON: remove gap between Ecma-404 and … Allen Wirfs-Brock
- Re: [Json] JSON: remove gap between Ecma-404 and … Paul Hoffman
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection John Cowan
- Re: [Json] JSON: remove gap between Ecma-404 and … Martin J. Dürst
- [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: remove … Pete Cordell
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)
- Re: [Json] JSON: remove gap between Ecma-404 and … John Cowan
- Re: [Json] JSON: remove gap between Ecma-404 and … Henry S. Thompson
- Re: [Json] JSON: remove gap between Ecma-404 and … Allen Wirfs-Brock
- Re: [Json] JSON: remove gap between Ecma-404 and … Allen Wirfs-Brock
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection Henry S. Thompson
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection John Cowan
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection David Booth
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection Henry S. Thompson
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection Pete Cordell
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection Paul Hoffman
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection Bjoern Hoehrmann
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection Paul Hoffman
- [Json] BOMs (Was: Re: JSON: remove gap between Ec… Pete Cordell
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection Pete Cordell
- Re: [Json] BOMs Henry S. Thompson
- Re: [Json] BOMs Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [Json] BOMs Bjoern Hoehrmann
- Re: [Json] BOMs Henry S. Thompson
- Re: [Json] BOMs Pete Cordell
- Re: [Json] BOMs Bjoern Hoehrmann
- Re: [Json] BOMs (Was: Re: JSON: remove gap betwee… Tim Bray
- Re: [Json] BOMs (Was: Re: JSON: remove gap betwee… Pete Cordell
- Re: [Json] BOMs John Cowan
- Re: [Json] BOMs (Was: Re: JSON: remove gap betwee… Julian Reschke
- Re: [Json] BOMs (Was: Re: JSON: remove gap betwee… John Cowan
- Re: [Json] BOMs (Was: Re: JSON: remove gap betwee… Pete Cordell
- Re: [Json] BOMs (Was: Re: JSON: remove gap betwee… Pete Cordell
- Re: [Json] BOMs (Was: Re: JSON: remove gap betwee… John Cowan
- Re: [Json] BOMs Tatu Saloranta
- Re: [Json] BOMs Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Json] BOMs Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [Json] BOMs Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [Json] BOMs Pete Cordell
- Re: [Json] BOMs Bjoern Hoehrmann
- Re: [Json] BOMs t.p.
- Re: [Json] BOMs Allen Wirfs-Brock
- Re: [Json] BOMs Tatu Saloranta
- Re: [Json] BOMs Henry S. Thompson
- Re: [Json] BOMs Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)
- Re: [Json] BOMs Chris Lilley
- Re: [Json] BOMs Pete Cordell
- Re: [Json] BOMs Henry S. Thompson
- Re: [Json] BOMs Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [Json] BOMs Henry S. Thompson
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… Henri Sivonen
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… John Cowan
- Re: [Json] BOMs Allen Wirfs-Brock
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… Henri Sivonen
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… Anne van Kesteren
- Re: [Json] BOMs Henri Sivonen
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… John Cowan
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)
- Re: [Json] BOMs Allen Wirfs-Brock
- Re: [Json] BOMs Bjoern Hoehrmann
- Re: [Json] BOMs Mathias Bynens
- Re: [Json] BOMs John Cowan
- Re: [Json] BOMs Bjoern Hoehrmann
- Re: [Json] BOMs Nico Williams
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… Henri Sivonen
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… Pete Cordell
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… Julian Reschke
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… Robin Berjon
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… John Cowan
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… Tim Bray
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… Allen Wirfs-Brock
- [Json] Consensus on JSON-text (WAS: JSON: remove … Matt Miller (mamille2)
- Re: [Json] BOMs Matt Miller (mamille2)
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… Matt Miller (mamille2)
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… Julian Reschke
- Re: [Json] BOMs Bjoern Hoehrmann
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… Bjoern Hoehrmann
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… John Cowan
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… John Cowan
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… Matt Miller (mamille2)
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… Pete Cordell
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… Pete Cordell
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… Allen Wirfs-Brock
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… Bjoern Hoehrmann
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… Henri Sivonen
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… Nico Williams
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… John Cowan
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… Jacob Davies
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… Nico Williams
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… Julian Reschke
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… Nico Williams
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… Nico Williams
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… Nico Williams
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… Bjoern Hoehrmann
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… Nico Williams
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… Henri Sivonen
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… John Cowan
- Re: [Json] Consensus on JSON-text (WAS: JSON: rem… Tim Bray
- Re: [Json] Consensus on JSON-text (WAS: JSON: rem… Alex Russell
- Re: [Json] Consensus on JSON-text (WAS: JSON: rem… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [Json] Consensus on JSON-text (WAS: JSON: rem… John Cowan
- Re: [Json] Consensus on JSON-text (WAS: JSON: rem… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [Json] Consensus on JSON-text (WAS: JSON: rem… Tim Bray
- Re: [Json] Consensus on JSON-text (WAS: JSON: rem… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Json] Consensus on JSON-text (WAS: JSON: rem… Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)
- Re: [Json] Consensus on JSON-text (WAS: JSON: rem… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [Json] Consensus on JSON-text (WAS: JSON: rem… Tim Berners-Lee
- Re: [Json] Consensus on JSON-text (WAS: JSON: rem… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [Json] Consensus on JSON-text (WAS: JSON: rem… Allen Wirfs-Brock
- Re: [Json] Consensus on JSON-text (WAS: JSON: rem… Noah Mendelsohn
- Re: [Json] Consensus on JSON-text (WAS: JSON: rem… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Json] Consensus on JSON-text (WAS: JSON: rem… Ashok Malhotra
- Re: [Json] Consensus on JSON-text (WAS: JSON: rem… Nico Williams
- Re: [Json] Consensus on JSON-text (WAS: JSON: rem… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Json] Consensus on JSON-text (WAS: JSON: rem… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Json] Consensus on JSON-text (WAS: JSON: rem… John Cowan
- Re: [Json] Consensus on JSON-text (WAS: JSON: rem… Alex Russell
- Re: [Json] Consensus on JSON-text (WAS: JSON: rem… Nico Williams
- Re: [Json] Consensus on JSON-text (WAS: JSON: rem… John Cowan