Re: [Json] BOMs (Was: Re: JSON: remove gap between Ecma-404 and IETF draft)
"Pete Cordell" <petejson@codalogic.com> Mon, 18 November 2013 16:12 UTC
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From: Pete Cordell <petejson@codalogic.com>
To: Tim Bray <tbray@textuality.com>
References: <AA45B3C6-1DC5-4B1E-8045-C9FE76022584@vpnc.org><CEA92854.2CC53%jhildebr@cisco.com><20131113224737.GI31823@mercury.ccil.org><f5bob5n71y7.fsf@troutbeck.inf.ed.ac.uk><5284B095.4070004@it.aoyama.ac.jp><C37B2FE59C164DBCA982AC81A56A09AA@codalogic> <CAHBU6ivieGAmNF=ZyMNoBCLO3q17E-J_g=pMN1jkfd1J_PW9iA@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2013 16:08:53 -0000
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Cc: John Cowan <cowan@mercury.ccil.org>, "Henry S. Thompson" <ht@inf.ed.ac.uk>, JSON WG <json@ietf.org>, Anne van Kesteren <annevk@annevk.nl>, es-discuss <es-discuss@mozilla.org>, "Martin J. Dürst" <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>, www-tag@w3.org, IETF Discussion <ietf@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Json] BOMs (Was: Re: JSON: remove gap between Ecma-404 and IETF draft)
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----- Original Message From: "Tim Bray" <tbray@textuality.com> > This feels backward, because BOMs are actually useful for UTF-16 and > UTF-32, but essentially useless for UTF-8. Not useless if you're trying to tell the difference between a hand editted Windows cp-1252 (or whatever it's called) encoded text file and a UTF-8 encoded text file. I don't think we need them for any other reason, but I think some international Windows users would be thankful if you allowed them for that case. On Mon, Nov 18, 2013 at 2:05 AM, Pete Cordell <petejson@codalogic.com>wrote: > Given the history below, would it be sensible to accept BOMs for UTF-8 > encoding, but not for UTF-16 and UTF-32? In other words, are BOMs needed > and/or used in the wild for UTF-16 and UTF-32? > > Maybe the text can say something like "SHOULD accept BOMs for UTF-8, and > MAY accept BOMs for UTF-16 and / or UTF-32"? > > Thanks, > > Pete Cordell > Codalogic Ltd > C++ tools for C++ programmers, http://codalogic.com > Read & write XML in C++, http://www.xml2cpp.com > ----- Original Message ----- From: ""Martin J. Dürst"" < > duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp> > To: "Henry S. Thompson" <ht@inf.ed.ac.uk> > Cc: "John Cowan" <cowan@mercury.ccil.org>; "IETF Discussion" > <ietf@ietf.org>; "Paul Hoffman" <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org>; "JSON WG" > <json@ietf.org>; "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" <jhildebr@cisco.com>; "Anne > van > Kesteren" <annevk@annevk.nl>; <www-tag@w3.org>; "es-discuss" > <es-discuss@mozilla.org> > Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 11:14 AM > Subject: Re: [Json] JSON: remove gap between Ecma-404 and IETF draft > > > Hello Henry, others, >> >> On 2013/11/14 18:44, Henry S. Thompson wrote: >> >>> John Cowan writes: >>> >>> Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr) scripsit: >>>> >>>> If 404 doesn't allow [a BOM], I don't see a strong need to add it. >>>>> Parsers can always be more forgiving of what they will parse than what >>>>> the spec says, particularly since section 9 says "A JSON parser MAY >>>>> accept non-JSON forms or extensions". >>>>> >>>> >>>> It's not clear that 404 disallows it, since 404 is defined in terms of >>>> characters, and a BOM is not a character but an out-of-band signal. >>>> >>> >>> I think this is a crucial observation. >>> >> >> Yes, and I think it's based on the experience with XML. But while this >> experience may be applicable to JSON, Anne's original comment about the >> BOM and XMLHttpRequest suggests that 404 actually currently does not >> tolerate a BOM, and that implementations (except for XMLHttpRequest) also >> don't. >> >> To give some historic background, the BOM for UTF-8 wasn't in the first >> edition of XML (http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/REC-xml-19980210#sec-guessing). >> It only later came in because Microsoft used it for notepad to be able to >> quickly distinguish between UTF-8 and the legacy system encoding. Because >> many people were writing some XML by hand, and some of them were using >> notepad, the pressure on XML to accept a BOM at the start of an UTF-8 >> file >> mounted, and it was included in the second edition of the XML >> Recommendation (http://www.w3.org/TR/2000/REC-xml-20001006#sec-guessing). >> >> Compared to XML, JSON may be much less edited by hand, or much less >> edited >> on notepad, or otherwise just have a different history from XML, but we >> have to make sure. >> >> Regards, Martin. >> >> >> I note that XML approaches >>> this problem in what might be a useful way. The XML ABNF makes no >>> mention of BOM, it's not part of any XML document as such. But it >>> _is_ allowed. The relevant wording [1] is: >>> >>> Entities ... may begin with the Byte Order Mark described by Annex H >>> of [ISO/IEC 10646:2000], section 16.8 of [Unicode] (the ZERO WIDTH >>> NO-BREAK SPACE character, #xFEFF). _This is an encoding signature,_ >>> _not part of either the markup or the character data of the XML_ >>> _document._ XML processors must be able to use this character to >>> differentiate between UTF-8 and UTF-16 encoded documents. [emphasis >>> added] >>> >>> ht >>> >>> [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml/#charencoding >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> json mailing list >> json@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json >> > > _______________________________________________ > json mailing list > json@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json >
- Re: [Json] JSON: remove gap between Ecma-404 and … Paul Hoffman
- Re: [Json] JSON: remove gap between Ecma-404 and … Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)
- Re: [Json] JSON: remove gap between Ecma-404 and … Carsten Bormann
- Re: [Json] JSON: remove gap between Ecma-404 and … Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)
- Re: [Json] JSON: remove gap between Ecma-404 and … Tony Hansen
- Re: [Json] JSON: remove gap between Ecma-404 and … Paul Hoffman
- Re: [Json] JSON: remove gap between Ecma-404 and … Allen Wirfs-Brock
- Re: [Json] JSON: remove gap between Ecma-404 and … Carsten Bormann
- Re: [Json] JSON: remove gap between Ecma-404 and … Joe Hildebrand
- Re: [Json] JSON: remove gap between Ecma-404 and … Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)
- Re: [Json] JSON: remove gap between Ecma-404 and … Paul Hoffman
- Re: [Json] JSON: remove gap between Ecma-404 and … John Cowan
- Re: [Json] JSON: remove gap between Ecma-404 and … Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)
- Re: [Json] JSON: remove gap between Ecma-404 and … Mark Davis ☕
- Re: [Json] JSON: remove gap between Ecma-404 and … John Cowan
- Re: [Json] JSON: remove gap between Ecma-404 and … Allen Wirfs-Brock
- Re: [Json] JSON: remove gap between Ecma-404 and … Paul Hoffman
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection John Cowan
- Re: [Json] JSON: remove gap between Ecma-404 and … Martin J. Dürst
- [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: remove … Pete Cordell
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)
- Re: [Json] JSON: remove gap between Ecma-404 and … John Cowan
- Re: [Json] JSON: remove gap between Ecma-404 and … Henry S. Thompson
- Re: [Json] JSON: remove gap between Ecma-404 and … Allen Wirfs-Brock
- Re: [Json] JSON: remove gap between Ecma-404 and … Allen Wirfs-Brock
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection Henry S. Thompson
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection John Cowan
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection David Booth
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection Henry S. Thompson
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection Pete Cordell
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection Paul Hoffman
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection Bjoern Hoehrmann
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection Paul Hoffman
- [Json] BOMs (Was: Re: JSON: remove gap between Ec… Pete Cordell
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection Pete Cordell
- Re: [Json] BOMs Henry S. Thompson
- Re: [Json] BOMs Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [Json] BOMs Bjoern Hoehrmann
- Re: [Json] BOMs Henry S. Thompson
- Re: [Json] BOMs Pete Cordell
- Re: [Json] BOMs Bjoern Hoehrmann
- Re: [Json] BOMs (Was: Re: JSON: remove gap betwee… Tim Bray
- Re: [Json] BOMs (Was: Re: JSON: remove gap betwee… Pete Cordell
- Re: [Json] BOMs John Cowan
- Re: [Json] BOMs (Was: Re: JSON: remove gap betwee… Julian Reschke
- Re: [Json] BOMs (Was: Re: JSON: remove gap betwee… John Cowan
- Re: [Json] BOMs (Was: Re: JSON: remove gap betwee… Pete Cordell
- Re: [Json] BOMs (Was: Re: JSON: remove gap betwee… Pete Cordell
- Re: [Json] BOMs (Was: Re: JSON: remove gap betwee… John Cowan
- Re: [Json] BOMs Tatu Saloranta
- Re: [Json] BOMs Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Json] BOMs Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [Json] BOMs Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [Json] BOMs Pete Cordell
- Re: [Json] BOMs Bjoern Hoehrmann
- Re: [Json] BOMs t.p.
- Re: [Json] BOMs Allen Wirfs-Brock
- Re: [Json] BOMs Tatu Saloranta
- Re: [Json] BOMs Henry S. Thompson
- Re: [Json] BOMs Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)
- Re: [Json] BOMs Chris Lilley
- Re: [Json] BOMs Pete Cordell
- Re: [Json] BOMs Henry S. Thompson
- Re: [Json] BOMs Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [Json] BOMs Henry S. Thompson
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… Henri Sivonen
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… John Cowan
- Re: [Json] BOMs Allen Wirfs-Brock
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… Henri Sivonen
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… Anne van Kesteren
- Re: [Json] BOMs Henri Sivonen
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… John Cowan
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)
- Re: [Json] BOMs Allen Wirfs-Brock
- Re: [Json] BOMs Bjoern Hoehrmann
- Re: [Json] BOMs Mathias Bynens
- Re: [Json] BOMs John Cowan
- Re: [Json] BOMs Bjoern Hoehrmann
- Re: [Json] BOMs Nico Williams
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… Henri Sivonen
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… Pete Cordell
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… Julian Reschke
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… Robin Berjon
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… John Cowan
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… Tim Bray
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… Allen Wirfs-Brock
- [Json] Consensus on JSON-text (WAS: JSON: remove … Matt Miller (mamille2)
- Re: [Json] BOMs Matt Miller (mamille2)
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… Matt Miller (mamille2)
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… Julian Reschke
- Re: [Json] BOMs Bjoern Hoehrmann
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… Bjoern Hoehrmann
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… John Cowan
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… John Cowan
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… Matt Miller (mamille2)
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… Pete Cordell
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… Pete Cordell
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… Allen Wirfs-Brock
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… Bjoern Hoehrmann
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… Henri Sivonen
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… Nico Williams
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… John Cowan
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… Jacob Davies
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… Nico Williams
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… Julian Reschke
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… Nico Williams
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… Nico Williams
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… Nico Williams
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… Bjoern Hoehrmann
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… Nico Williams
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… Henri Sivonen
- Re: [Json] Encoding detection (Was: Re: JSON: rem… John Cowan
- Re: [Json] Consensus on JSON-text (WAS: JSON: rem… Tim Bray
- Re: [Json] Consensus on JSON-text (WAS: JSON: rem… Alex Russell
- Re: [Json] Consensus on JSON-text (WAS: JSON: rem… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [Json] Consensus on JSON-text (WAS: JSON: rem… John Cowan
- Re: [Json] Consensus on JSON-text (WAS: JSON: rem… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [Json] Consensus on JSON-text (WAS: JSON: rem… Tim Bray
- Re: [Json] Consensus on JSON-text (WAS: JSON: rem… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Json] Consensus on JSON-text (WAS: JSON: rem… Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)
- Re: [Json] Consensus on JSON-text (WAS: JSON: rem… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [Json] Consensus on JSON-text (WAS: JSON: rem… Tim Berners-Lee
- Re: [Json] Consensus on JSON-text (WAS: JSON: rem… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [Json] Consensus on JSON-text (WAS: JSON: rem… Allen Wirfs-Brock
- Re: [Json] Consensus on JSON-text (WAS: JSON: rem… Noah Mendelsohn
- Re: [Json] Consensus on JSON-text (WAS: JSON: rem… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Json] Consensus on JSON-text (WAS: JSON: rem… Ashok Malhotra
- Re: [Json] Consensus on JSON-text (WAS: JSON: rem… Nico Williams
- Re: [Json] Consensus on JSON-text (WAS: JSON: rem… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Json] Consensus on JSON-text (WAS: JSON: rem… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Json] Consensus on JSON-text (WAS: JSON: rem… John Cowan
- Re: [Json] Consensus on JSON-text (WAS: JSON: rem… Alex Russell
- Re: [Json] Consensus on JSON-text (WAS: JSON: rem… Nico Williams
- Re: [Json] Consensus on JSON-text (WAS: JSON: rem… John Cowan