Re: [Json] Call for Consensus: Proposed Text for "8.1 Character Encoding"

Martin J. Dürst <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Mon, 27 March 2017 04:18 UTC

Return-Path: <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 028AA1276AF for <json@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sun, 26 Mar 2017 21:18:43 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.902
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=itaoyama.onmicrosoft.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ek1ir_FKsEZ9 for <json@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sun, 26 Mar 2017 21:18:41 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from JPN01-OS2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-os2jpn01on0135.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.92.135]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BCEA4127876 for <json@ietf.org>; Sun, 26 Mar 2017 21:18:40 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=itaoyama.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-it-aoyama-ac-jp; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=fHENDVkPrKO6Ft3DtClwfdlxszMnGqyYG9AMtQYzb2Q=; b=c7FH4eBTAabSobxG1vOQQHXFfCqIVJnW4o7oNmkJ/MvIZvd6XlwMfM3iuaffST3DyslJEaJyu87kqVTEQ0mb0PHcj5LHimMi9i4jmpU1HlkGsWKPSOd4Qqr0msOUqzzBf2Z2DolqPvZ5fDLWDlsKDyrNlUJZLQL8CE98WRsko00=
Authentication-Results: ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=it.aoyama.ac.jp;
Received: from [133.2.210.64] (133.2.210.64) by TYXPR01MB0654.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (10.168.43.141) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.991.14; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 04:18:38 +0000
To: "Matthew A. Miller" <linuxwolf+ietf@outer-planes.net>
References: <1fb5849e-8dbf-835d-65b7-2403686248f9@outer-planes.net> <0E32A94D-CE12-4F52-9ED6-8743C49751B4@vpnc.org> <4d2f0fb3-a729-0c17-2394-bc1e005dd612@gmx.de> <d09f9a59-2411-45a0-470c-ea95072fe4fd@outer-planes.net> <dad91b19-e774-e239-36d2-9d086cca8e0d@gmx.de> <ac432615-ee84-3cdf-6b37-480626bd18c1@gmx.de> <804f9930-26a5-a565-0607-452b386cfeb5@outer-planes.net> <D89BCFAA-B81F-4EEB-8B3A-180BAAB9D16C@att.com> <e69d7c21-85cb-45f4-c0c2-34c624e63049@outer-planes.net> <14252631-AD76-4537-89BF-6368F4A8CDF4@att.com> <7e6af21f-16ea-a3bc-9c01-595ae8acebba@gmx.de> <05100401-88D4-4158-A3FF-3EF144D85449@att.com> <CAD2gp_T0bfpnsCA_t4BAMtEhr7p8JkZggjnY4F+m9-M2hWLfmw@mail.gmail.com> <1e94516c-9c82-8b0e-0d2d-7dbaa83b21bd@outer-planes.net>
CC: "json@ietf.org" <json@ietf.org>
From: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J._D=c3=bcrst?= <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University
Message-ID: <40e3207f-e047-c898-1f0c-4422de1d597a@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 13:18:36 +0900
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <1e94516c-9c82-8b0e-0d2d-7dbaa83b21bd@outer-planes.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Originating-IP: [133.2.210.64]
X-ClientProxiedBy: OS1PR01CA0047.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (10.164.162.29) To TYXPR01MB0654.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (10.168.43.141)
X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 0b44e2a7-2105-4165-a350-08d474c85817
X-Microsoft-Antispam: UriScan:;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:(22001);SRVR:TYXPR01MB0654;
X-Microsoft-Exchange-Diagnostics: 1; TYXPR01MB0654; 3:BhEJb4ZqDAoPs2PQt6nUc3BcT/956TQEyURYgzi+YolxQOf156tScQkktyS7mwz4z429vhdw1Fmr2OrYq95aWoKM6eUNWdiALUzZYh5e+CCKK4AXGv3FfpmHKp7z7c/HDwbdoL+GWjZKR9T01ssok2ahdRoWar2iHOkdka/1aRJEa0d2h5Ezc8uei4z5nDb8CgcTj7ndcJLWukfEjJ3ot3Cl8ghNJ79wBoe5HSQB4ShHeKobNG3ai58jHN/wJ+gO2SPC5MBzETkNYC+YwTG0YQ==; 25:mrVDMVc68SYywPCup5iDLLz3CJmVS1roqTViXkTi67b8I5zfyYufhAEnwf4v41FBqTCihzsdIu+oUUPheBFZ2MgsFE2dF33d3oYDM8qDEvOFz7606F+5Y221rrbD9mkwiAjGQbR9juAgu40QBrbIP+e3Z0Je3xKSlUEtyvBsePCxt2bRvQB91qp4viHDYl4J+Ng5WzSsS+r0WdsTOVKY57HglexJKoEAA5PEQMPJkBRsEBKTUI1mA564EHSgP2vhCfyzRfaVsoMoCAWcjL/+rITfXpzKLsr7nXzeBAqjg8jObjpKn4mWuw2QTv1gg0F4o7H1Kfcl6GQX3nFM47Xjo94bYo3LSspxVQ+x+jwXUTQJ/S4ZXyN4HhdlFAdgzLCDcV52VX/7vahJUw0QuKJo6GOA8DNPWZmpdfOodhHqWWRc+AjXEjIOkxFZLzWc3AYZCjCgtzv2QeC/HP/EUgd3AA==
X-Microsoft-Exchange-Diagnostics: 1; TYXPR01MB0654; 31:SWxhlyK8iAlh79UkR4SZHIp+J5qo5vSiBGWzdpHDpZ4bH375H1Mjm8ovV+bvJC3IQNRmNJFt48kxO02bBL2BvTYQZBJpGYwqyh7HVvdA9YfpTZArmlPSsCiVGCltA25QlMFpMiiws3KerNfTjaQGf6xaMsl7FIAlxYO3ltVD9r30ip0L8YgGfu5fplZl330eND/x6CYaSH48VSbOtsZrSKmxwrFOvdLxUujZtaS75yYCo8Cllvexi4cG3XhGBIt4Pg5xchGULeCu2sp01YTeAg==; 4: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
X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: <TYXPR01MB0654726D8CB0B1D64D34E5CFCA330@TYXPR01MB0654.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com>
X-Exchange-Antispam-Report-Test: UriScan:(100405760836317);
X-Exchange-Antispam-Report-CFA-Test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(6040375)(2401047)(8121501046)(5005006)(10201501046)(3002001)(6041248)(20161123555025)(20161123564025)(20161123562025)(20161123558025)(20161123560025)(6072148); SRVR:TYXPR01MB0654; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:TYXPR01MB0654;
X-Forefront-PRVS: 02596AB7DA
X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(4630300001)(6009001)(6049001)(39410400002)(39830400002)(12864004)(24454002)(65956001)(65806001)(50986999)(47776003)(76176999)(54356999)(189998001)(66066001)(74482002)(86362001)(50466002)(23676002)(31696002)(33646002)(31686004)(42186005)(42882006)(2950100002)(229853002)(93886004)(64126003)(8676002)(25786009)(53546009)(81166006)(7736002)(53936002)(305945005)(110136004)(38730400002)(83506001)(6246003)(6116002)(3846002)(4326008)(6486002)(5660300001)(2906002)(230700001)(3940600001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:TYXPR01MB0654; H:[133.2.210.64]; FPR:; SPF:None; MLV:sfv; LANG:en;
X-Microsoft-Exchange-Diagnostics: =?utf-8?B?MTtUWVhQUjAxTUIwNjU0OzIzOmliaWsrVXl1WGFyRkZ6cjFialdjRld0YXh4?= =?utf-8?B?QUpZQllJdlNhT0dJWlUrYUg5RFU5cDBYY1BmUjlJOFlpZ1I5NnEwNFEyVXov?= =?utf-8?B?NkNVYzZMRk9PQnAwdzRFWERlN244VmhZT0VwVDRtNXVSN1VjdVZRc21FU2F3?= =?utf-8?B?YWlNMzNRY0k3SGRRQUpDdGg3L2lJMWZaSWJjY2s1QVRJUGZMNVJQa3U1NFhG?= =?utf-8?B?U1NUQ01VcEd0bGl1RmV4bjBNVDdhbkp0aGtVUjBBOGhjOVA5OWl2T1NOZWZy?= =?utf-8?B?SWI1TnZJUFlZcGFNSlBIdENiVHNNMlQ0QmxGcHdTenNsMWRZei9XS01lRHow?= =?utf-8?B?QXBheEhQaUNtdWVVWmNHZWFqZ3E0NnV4VWFSbEdVemRlS3YvZnhiclQ4R3R6?= =?utf-8?B?ekRuR3l4N0ZXWXR2NTFyWkk5ZTF3anFqWEZDVDFmUWhCbmp4bEk2MmVnOUJ4?= =?utf-8?B?b2djdzBKQk81dTZ5b0p2dVl5L3lBZW1lcS9WZEM0Z3JScmdBRXgxN2JMVmVW?= =?utf-8?B?RWUyUTZoRFpaa2x1SElPby9KOFAzTlp6azhCdWFRM1RmRlVXcnNlUTJjeXNJ?= =?utf-8?B?Qnlpbm9wQVZmQlRxd1YyT2lMOERjVkZ3WmJVSC9iczlpbmVVczBPMkR1MlVR?= =?utf-8?B?SG8vcE5aMTFBbG90aGdIVDlLRi83enJBejhMMW1hSlJnWjh2SjA1amtjdWE2?= =?utf-8?B?NmllUFBYSHdLclQyVm1OcFpSTDBIYWxYQXlNMWpmMDJWODhVZkowNFFYU1Vu?= =?utf-8?B?QXdjaXZIbUtWQmVZbjBMaTFLUHZlTWFTNlVUQmk2cGFCTVJqeDA1d0ExTDhj?= =?utf-8?B?bU04RTdnVm9zZUFSdUtOWnUzdXNrSERCQWpYTXc5ck56WWM1Qy9EbFNaMTV6?= =?utf-8?B?U2w3Y2pOYlBFN3FyWllWTGlVYkgvVmJaRTdGRGU4SzBiYksxSEVRNnZkMlFt?= =?utf-8?B?VnIyOEl4UlVZSjhjU3Q1MlRKaXg0WTNTcys1bEtYdmtyc01NbmxGMkRvWk1B?= =?utf-8?B?bGdjZlQyRHNXNm5SSFF0ZmRRWll3dTMwdTZsb2tuR0YvRlN6RTV0L2RsVks0?= =?utf-8?B?aUNLemhhajhFZkNDM3NRRE15R2x5RXE4L3UrdmtVeW9JZXJGVVhWM0NQaHBZ?= =?utf-8?B?aXNSRzBmRExVM0VXNUZJZCtqUUs3dGNNT0FDcVhRMC9hYUlSdGQveDlURzJt?= =?utf-8?B?amFRVnUvdWdPOEcrU3Q0Nm5XekxxclZaUnhReHNJRm9iZW1RcGs5YTZGUWNh?= =?utf-8?B?aXNSWis5anJLVDBHUkpyQm9ZZmVMaWtheGxscXQ4VzA1blB2V0dOT1cxU1N4?= =?utf-8?B?NHNRa1hRN3labnhOZEV1UkxXTFRNcHZMV1d2cCtMZDZ5a0U2QytoaTlmWFYz?= =?utf-8?B?ZC92TG8zWVprRmpMaTVYd3RUci80VkJBRnZqWm9TRWdSRk5SekdWSDVldVcr?= =?utf-8?B?Wko4OFk2dGRGekdRSWJEeW03NElNVzA5YUI0UWh3bUROcUFoVDZwWlM2LzlR?= =?utf-8?B?ZExPN3hBTkp6b0lQb2ZmRStNU1l0MDJLc2xkYThmNzdRZkdzWERFWFFqVTQr?= =?utf-8?B?MWN3aGFXai8yOHpWT2ZxTkpsQ2d0MFE9PQ==?=
X-Microsoft-Exchange-Diagnostics: 1; TYXPR01MB0654; 6:kqWRvd+RwdQawyzr+ZGn5L75cBIDOjgUVSgnG1u3riQD5mlo/d+0WnOTzOVjVDEUhCmlMs18/tOrfiqdKaXz/p5p2Z7jGUVXAuAb2mcj+0eSGpNydFoZjIIA2Qi+GU38MFw/KxwrWKe4XOsrO9qfnmxuYLPxUhpHw9Ys4b9zW+DIQMsW3cfA/RpAQyDZp/UgSMKk2gCMaF+++P6MJOyMmQCBSRqcsiAS2ozgjEZhJipwojTpNmbH9pFb7euL0njYS5bp0sjOaVXsEO0lP190HW4BGCoO1pB66mW1Qg0XsMPdCImxYkUr3sWNekhyqpaHCdp+K2ot2usd7jZo+MU7WpIRhOvGMIqFbaqvaymWCAx3zFW1zE9FMDKDDjyT4Vtotkx4udyLDN+nL9jrQjSfCg==; 5:ZfJwERolJEmRIDRtncQNqQeVSJJXZhnlTgEXRx/7RRqP1CJADf4kEOMtyzchUjz2Uog65c76h89k06PaP3QE9Y9UHGmhr/4Mmwc2q820MC3bwbrkY1vuITLnQeNSOa+hJ4EpCavjXDZ1Ki8vgOD68g==; 24:ocOJH04OZEhJVgaCxOhE1p17dQykvAkj7ByLV4/xt/FchFl+dp0k633ZuEoFnqy4doqT0R1VXTgeH6eWuvXl/cQtDGHtIw3wrrd125+nQ1g=
SpamDiagnosticOutput: 1:99
SpamDiagnosticMetadata: NSPM
X-Microsoft-Exchange-Diagnostics: 1; TYXPR01MB0654; 7:D9CyfBzB8IMSdIDkeHs7rZNoxH6GvjJ69rxPWBpz7brKTRfBwZWNgSvc3eMX4OJy0yJsQWQWGutpvIVVrfS5JPpuDVi7QaroyxaSJGK3QV4KMqdEv5dOPgrck72WJcp+yGW+DWeHxpcK/iA34FHv6AYAT1cjm0wfhZn4hs2xA8HyXGai1IOewKV8dZqzVwYa3cQeQ8tFZi5p8sHG0KW7F0M1Vk7R/iOvysXlkIpB362CsZmEWTvAZFHMbDJH+vpZqQWFgAU6Vol6r895zk0sWYzUrxRfoVBQEijbzrYZ4DR4LE+F2NCPJ6A+evruLhePeuYG3j1YOjw/zF41Z+0C7A==
X-OriginatorOrg: it.aoyama.ac.jp
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Mar 2017 04:18:38.5214 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: TYXPR01MB0654
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/byTF71CseBRXsDkgifSh-59UJaM>
Subject: Re: [Json] Call for Consensus: Proposed Text for "8.1 Character Encoding"
X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22
Precedence: list
List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" <json.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/json>, <mailto:json-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/json/>
List-Post: <mailto:json@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:json-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json>, <mailto:json-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 04:18:43 -0000

On 2017/03/24 06:37, Matthew A. Miller wrote:
> On 17/03/23 15:49, John Cowan wrote:

>> In that case, discourage implementation of anything but UTF-8.

> Our sponsoring AD and I have been discussing this option.  Alexey is
> willing to go through another IETF last call if we can get consensus.
>
> To start, to what degree is UTF-8 encouraged?
>
> 0) don't encourage UTF-8 more than already is
> 1) SHOULD encode as UTF-8 for all usages
> 2) SHOULD encode as UTF-8 where the media type is 'application/json'
> 3) MUST encode as UTF-8 where the media type is 'application/json'
> 4) other -- please specify

The more UTF-8, and the less of anything else, the better for 
interoperability.

So ideally, that would be "MUST use UTF-8".

The next would be "SHOULD use UTF-8, but MAY use UTF-16/32 if they are 
sure the intended recipient can process it". (This would go together 
with (4) above.)

The next would be (3).

I'm fine if we need another IETF last call to get closer to the above. 
I'm also fine if we don't need another last call, even if the consensus 
falls somewhere else.

I still don't see why some people insist on keeping UTF-16/UTF-32. As 
far as I see it, the fact that it has been mentioned in earlier RFCs 
isn't relevant content-wise (because it's just confusing to people to 
mention these encodings when all they need to do is use UTF-8), and also 
isn't relevant process-wise (it's a good idea to remove usused/unusable 
options when rewriting a spec, and the IETF does this all the time).

Regards,   Martin.