Re: [Json] On flat vs nested JSON encoding style

Tim Bray <tbray@textuality.com> Fri, 05 February 2016 07:35 UTC

Return-Path: <tbray@textuality.com>
X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 611BD1A0062 for <json@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 4 Feb 2016 23:35:34 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.277
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.277 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] autolearn=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KsDKQ75Vn_O3 for <json@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 4 Feb 2016 23:35:32 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail-io0-x230.google.com (mail-io0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B39791A0060 for <json@ietf.org>; Thu, 4 Feb 2016 23:35:32 -0800 (PST)
Received: by mail-io0-x230.google.com with SMTP id g73so120366056ioe.3 for <json@ietf.org>; Thu, 04 Feb 2016 23:35:32 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=textuality-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=K1Iq3xXyDyikDlSBoOWDIQW0g2zItjCCtEYcamL+tUY=; b=KIZe5O4CFLXk8WkH3yk/nX6TRS8rQ10Nulv40hbMW2UJ+8VpRF5sMGscoNmwZ6zi5J shgqip3YGebdYuVIV+HUCv3PLkonq2cOoG/loE0BhonYm59a7yhPI7TzLOtI/Ko6BINh ht1hi3A+K2G4C1WSQktPVtGiKvvvMqruax2dgDy6dEfG+H91rDjBm7kL7LGhOqdpMDB4 ncJyc7mhyVf6A6DZngrdiA+q6ltBEL0NItl/9VcmzsS2ttPbZcp8M5myxz5F24x8iYKE OCbPDSYnnXchBb5vDMoHtutwoZxg7p+BtMAldHKfn5v5kfX91kEZnd1Hlp9KQX/Klz0V D2Ag==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=K1Iq3xXyDyikDlSBoOWDIQW0g2zItjCCtEYcamL+tUY=; b=WdhCx+LO/t4Ecn3Efjvskq8y1XA6WR8up8cdQj96f8zZVTZhc4qZ1wU9fiVYzFVJS5 LXfrZ46SVh/6PPWUgxzAaT09qXERnQNbA8vi1ZlcIekAdB4Mw0K/RJyw/IVzk3xMDBzU PUjPw0D0FTOmrLzWQYsy0xpJaZ/sEc4eRe6Mu0uZE2nR2p9wq+WSNySNkCBNhfO3WKAT YvdS7Nb5CRe+9DpXb3nuD0joUBDB4ogDf33GUKvEJ9e27NGSENOL+PpS8V5Vzgn4DF+4 Y73PdfjPRmR1DMuGpGNMzweFsqpg54bPiPkL7Nh0GURRyYhLoUHdJXm7gGKWgna8q0oa v/VA==
X-Gm-Message-State: AG10YOSD/ZKgCw3uOURcJL39ZqzOPd58jZMFYdwAUcw5nfsli59t2XNCUBTJJ3eiDrTTTRKhu0VoVTED3giJLQ==
X-Received: by 10.107.47.227 with SMTP id v96mr15589751iov.65.1454657732093; Thu, 04 Feb 2016 23:35:32 -0800 (PST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.79.90.68 with HTTP; Thu, 4 Feb 2016 23:35:12 -0800 (PST)
X-Originating-IP: [24.84.248.61]
In-Reply-To: <56B43FCE.6080408@gmail.com>
References: <CAMm+LwirhVcmUkdfyA3WKe_W747JTWNF1Ht2Nr8NJdDxOFCJOw@mail.gmail.com> <56B36D15.1030306@gmail.com> <56B370A1.1050508@tzi.org> <56B373B8.7040305@gmail.com> <20160205001717.GC2997@mercury.ccil.org> <CAMm+Lwg4iqKtUjX+gw2zMu6A-fRc7_MRT14R3n670gBzMtdP9Q@mail.gmail.com> <56B43FCE.6080408@gmail.com>
From: Tim Bray <tbray@textuality.com>
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 2016 23:35:12 -0800
Message-ID: <CAHBU6iu9peh7YkPV4SsRmtmuEjwoQH_Kg+Wf3qtvBccT=iChRQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Anders Rundgren <anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a11c168fa644bd5052b00e5ac"
Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/hCSkMWUynumKMbvIcAaMn_3XF_M>
Cc: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>, Phillip Hallam-Baker <phill@hallambaker.com>, John Cowan <cowan@mercury.ccil.org>, JSON WG <json@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Json] On flat vs nested JSON encoding style
X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" <json.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/json>, <mailto:json-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/json/>
List-Post: <mailto:json@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:json-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json>, <mailto:json-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Feb 2016 07:35:34 -0000

Well, over at AWS, I’ve just helped launch an experiment in doing things at
a large scale exactly the way PHB recommends against :)  Check out our
“CloudWatch Events” JSON at
http://docs.aws.amazon.com/AmazonCloudWatch/latest/DeveloperGuide/CloudWatchEventsandEventPatterns.html


We have millions & millions & millions of these flowing through the pipes
already, with many more to come.

On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 10:23 PM, Anders Rundgren <
anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 2016-02-05 02:09, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 7:17 PM, John Cowan <cowan@mercury.ccil.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Anders Rundgren scripsit:
>>>
>>> This ecosystem is rapidly diminishing since ECMAScript nowadays mandates
>>>> strict insertion/declaration order for serialization.
>>>>
>>>
>>> That affects only ECMAscript implementations, though, so there are no
>>> such
>>> guarantees on the server side, or server-to-server, unless Node.js or
>>> something similar is being used.
>>>
>>
>> +1
>>
>> We are doing RFC7159 JSON. Order is not guaranteed. A sender can emit
>> the request in any order they like. Code that depends on the order of
>> elements within an object is broken.
>>
>
> Well, the W3C Web Payment IG/WG folks who claim they are working with
> a new (and presumable secure) system for the Web Payments have not yet
> begun dealing with how they are going to sign their JSON messages.
>
> This will be a litmus test, not for RFC7159, but for RFC7515:
> https://github.com/golang/go/issues/14135#issuecomment-177265555
>
> In the meantime, I'm helping JSON tool-vendors providing support for
> "Predictable Serialization" a la ES6/V8.  With the sole exception of
> "Number", this is not rocket science and that particular rocket has already
> been built by Google and the blueprints are readily available as well.
>
> Maybe we can come back to this issue in 18 months and see where it went?
>
> Anders
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> json mailing list
> json@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json
>



-- 
- Tim Bray (If you’d like to send me a private message, see
https://keybase.io/timbray)