Re: [keyassure] Objective: Restrictive versus Supplementary Models
"Jim Schaad" <ietf@augustcellars.com> Fri, 01 April 2011 08:14 UTC
Return-Path: <ietf@augustcellars.com>
X-Original-To: keyassure@core3.amsl.com
Delivered-To: keyassure@core3.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 813B23A6AF8 for <keyassure@core3.amsl.com>; Fri, 1 Apr 2011 01:14:31 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -3.265
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.265 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.334, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZQkaYOT0DiAw for <keyassure@core3.amsl.com>; Fri, 1 Apr 2011 01:14:30 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from new-smtp02.pacifier.net (new-smtp02.pacifier.net [64.255.237.176]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 629E828C104 for <keyassure@ietf.org>; Fri, 1 Apr 2011 01:14:30 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from TITUS (dhcp-168b.meeting.ietf.org [130.129.22.139]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jimsch@nwlink.com) by new-smtp02.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 133AE2CA02; Fri, 1 Apr 2011 01:16:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>
To: 'Eric Rescorla' <ekr@rtfm.com>, "'Richard L. Barnes'" <rbarnes@bbn.com>
References: <AANLkTik1Uzd8XSZzopBBDHywrhSjsBQYxC91BZXdkMwg@mail.gmail.com> <0AE869F3-0BBB-485F-8CDD-EC1B70EBB9B2@bbn.com> <AANLkTi=r884poth6pAXPtot0XVuCXfEprcYQTDdPLR1W@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=r884poth6pAXPtot0XVuCXfEprcYQTDdPLR1W@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2011 10:15:51 +0200
Message-ID: <003601cbf045$05a10740$10e315c0$@augustcellars.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0
Thread-Index: AQMhc87ggVnYLx8lyDMlS27ZZ4x4/gIJtPsyAcxg//6RfvFC8A==
Content-Language: en-us
Cc: keyassure@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [keyassure] Objective: Restrictive versus Supplementary Models
X-BeenThere: keyassure@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
List-Id: Key Assurance With DNSSEC <keyassure.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/keyassure>, <mailto:keyassure-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/keyassure>
List-Post: <mailto:keyassure@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:keyassure-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/keyassure>, <mailto:keyassure-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2011 08:14:31 -0000
> -----Original Message----- > From: keyassure-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:keyassure-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Eric Rescorla > Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2011 2:28 PM > To: Richard L. Barnes > Cc: keyassure@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [keyassure] Objective: Restrictive versus Supplementary Models > > On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 2:18 PM, Richard L. Barnes <rbarnes@bbn.com> > wrote: > > I agree with Ekr and Steve that these are the right goals. I don't have any > further goals to add. Just trying to re-state in bullet-point form: > > > > 1. Cert-lock / CA-lock > > 1.1. Use case: > > 1.1.1. Client initiates TLS connection and gets server cert chain > > 1.1.2. Client performs normal TLS/PKIX validation on cert chain 1.1.3. > > Client retrieves DANE records from DNS 1.1.4. DANE records specify EE > > or CA certs that MUST be present in cert chain 1.1.5. Client verifies > > that TLS cert chain meets DANE constraints 1.2. Security goal: Defend > > against issuance of other certs for this domain 1.3. DNSSEC > > RECOMMENDED, not REQUIRED; attacker can only cause connection failure > > > > 2. Domain-managed authentication > > 2.1. Use case: > > 2.1.1. Client retrieves DANE records from DNS 2.1.2. DANE records > > specify Trust Anchors for PKIX certificate validation 2.1.3. Client > > adds DANE CA certs to TA store (optionally, drops all others) 2.1.3. > > Client initiates TLS connection and gets server cert chain 2.1.4. > > Client performs normal TLS/PKIX validation on cert chain I have some concerns about making these a TA in all cases. Specifically if this is an intermediate CA in a chain that goes to a TA that I have configured in my system. Turning this CA into a TA means that any configuration information that I have on my TA plus any extensions that are in CA certificates between the TA and CA in the DANE statement are all suddenly ignored. I think this is bad behavior. Jim > > I don't think this last point has consensus. Certainly, in the case where the > certificate in question is the terminal certificate, I think at least some people > don't care if it's invalid from a PKIX perspective. > > -Ekr > > > 2.2. Security goal: Allow TLS to work without pre-configured TAs 2.3. > > DNSSEC REQUIRED; attacker can insert bogus TAs > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mar 30, 2011, at 10:48 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > >> To follow up on my comments at the microphone, there are two > >> potential objectives for technology of this type: > >> > >> 1. Protecting against CA mis-issue (as in CA/cert lock). > >> 2. Allowing TLS to work without getting a certificate from one of the > >> established trust anchors. > >> > >> In the first case, the idea would be that the relying party would go > >> through its ordinary validation logic and if that failed, would > >> reject the certificate. However, if the validation succeeded, it > >> would check DNS and if that check failed, would then reject the > >> certificate. Only if both checks succeeded would the certificate be > >> accepted. [0] The objective of this type of mechanism would be simply > >> to defend against unauthorized certificate issuance. > >> Note that in this case, the DANE data need not be DNSSEC secured, > >> because an attacker who tampers with it will solely be able to cause > >> a connection failure, and in many cases (TLS, SSH, etc.) an attacker > >> with those capabilities can tamper with the A record and block the > >> connection that way. > >> > >> In the second case, the intention is to allow clients to effectively > >> bypass the existing trust hierarchy by injecting a new trust point > >> via the DNS. Thus, either the certificate validation simply will not > >> be used at all (in the case where a terminal certificate is provided) > >> or will be used up to a newly inserted trust anchor. In either case, > >> the presumptive rationale here is that it's too inconvenient to deal > >> with the existing CAs and that DANE will be easier. > >> This version of DANE *does* need to be protected via DNSSEC because > >> tampering with these records allows the attacker to impersonate the > >> authenticating party to the relying party. > >> > >> > >> The draft to some extent conflates these two objectives, since it > >> *both* injects a new trust > >> anchor and restricts the list of potential certificates. It does not > >> allow you to simply restrict the list of CAs/certificates without > >> also injecting a new trust point. > >> > >> > >> Opinion follows: > >> For my money the most important driving use case for this work is the > >> first case, for two reasons. First, it's the more pressing problem > >> since it's not really > >> *that* hard to get a > >> certificate from one of the existing CAs, but this also means that we > >> have to worry about mis-issue by misbehaving CAs, as we have recently > >> seen. Second, the incremental deployment story is much easier, since > >> clients which don't speak DANE will just not be protected against > >> attack, whereas in the second case clients which don't speak DANE > >> will experience certificate errors when connecting to a DANE-only > >> site. > >> > >> -Ekr > >> > >> > >> [0] The checks can be done in either order. This is only for clarity. > >> _______________________________________________ > >> keyassure mailing list > >> keyassure@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/keyassure > > > > > _______________________________________________ > keyassure mailing list > keyassure@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/keyassure
- [keyassure] Objective: Restrictive versus Supplem… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [keyassure] Objective: Restrictive versus Sup… Paul Wouters
- Re: [keyassure] Objective: Restrictive versus Sup… Yoav Nir
- Re: [keyassure] Objective: Restrictive versus Sup… Stephen Kent
- Re: [keyassure] Objective: Restrictive versus Sup… Richard L. Barnes
- Re: [keyassure] Objective: Restrictive versus Sup… Richard L. Barnes
- Re: [keyassure] Objective: Restrictive versus Sup… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [keyassure] Objective: Restrictive versus Sup… Richard L. Barnes
- Re: [keyassure] Objective: Restrictive versus Sup… Michael Richardson
- Re: [keyassure] Objective: Restrictive versus Sup… James Cloos
- Re: [keyassure] Objective: Restrictive versus Sup… James Cloos
- Re: [keyassure] Objective: Restrictive versus Sup… Martin Rex
- Re: [keyassure] Objective: Restrictive versus Sup… Martin Rex
- Re: [keyassure] Objective: Restrictive versus Sup… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [keyassure] Objective: Restrictive versus Sup… Richard L. Barnes
- Re: [keyassure] Objective: Restrictive versus Sup… Jay Daley
- Re: [keyassure] Objective: Restrictive versus Sup… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [keyassure] Objective: Restrictive versus Sup… James Cloos
- Re: [keyassure] Objective: Restrictive versus Sup… Jay Daley
- Re: [keyassure] Objective: Restrictive versus Sup… Richard L. Barnes
- Re: [keyassure] Objective: Restrictive versus Sup… Martin Rex
- Re: [keyassure] Objective: Restrictive versus Sup… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [keyassure] Objective: Restrictive versus Sup… Warren Kumari
- Re: [keyassure] Objective: Restrictive versus Sup… Martin Rex
- Re: [keyassure] Objective: Restrictive versus Sup… Martin Rex
- Re: [keyassure] Objective: Restrictive versus Sup… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [keyassure] Objective: Restrictive versus Sup… Paul Wouters
- Re: [keyassure] Objective: Restrictive versus Sup… Paul Wouters
- Re: [keyassure] Objective: Restrictive versus Sup… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [keyassure] Objective: Restrictive versus Sup… Michael Richardson
- Re: [keyassure] Objective: Restrictive versus Sup… Richard L. Barnes
- Re: [keyassure] Objective: Restrictive versus Sup… Yoav Nir
- Re: [keyassure] Objective: Restrictive versus Sup… Michael Richardson
- Re: [keyassure] Objective: Restrictive versus Sup… Yoav Nir
- Re: [keyassure] Objective: Restrictive versus Sup… Martin Rex
- Re: [keyassure] Objective: Restrictive versus Sup… Martin Rex
- Re: [keyassure] Objective: Restrictive versus Sup… Yoav Nir
- Re: [keyassure] Objective: Restrictive versus Sup… Richard L. Barnes
- Re: [keyassure] Objective: Restrictive versus Sup… Martin Rex
- Re: [keyassure] Objective: Restrictive versus Sup… James Cloos
- Re: [keyassure] Objective: Restrictive versus Sup… Paul Wouters
- Re: [keyassure] Objective: Restrictive versus Sup… Paul Wouters
- Re: [keyassure] Objective: Restrictive versus Sup… Yoav Nir
- Re: [keyassure] Objective: Restrictive versus Sup… Yoav Nir
- Re: [keyassure] Objective: Restrictive versus Sup… Paul Wouters
- Re: [keyassure] Objective: Restrictive versus Sup… Jim Schaad