Re: [kitten] Martin Duke's Discuss on draft-ietf-kitten-tls-channel-bindings-for-tls13-14: (with DISCUSS)

Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com> Wed, 23 February 2022 21:08 UTC

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From: Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2022 13:08:42 -0800
Message-ID: <CAM4esxSsQRMnfJnUassNfVtv7OtpXAwXv2Xfnd+vDg-iJyho1Q@mail.gmail.com>
To: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
Cc: Sam Whited <sam@samwhited.com>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, KITTEN Working Group <kitten@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-kitten-tls-channel-bindings-for-tls13@ietf.org, kitten-chairs@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [kitten] Martin Duke's Discuss on draft-ietf-kitten-tls-channel-bindings-for-tls13-14: (with DISCUSS)
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Yep , I have no opinion on whether it should be updated, but the header and
the text should match.

That said, if there is no consensus that seems like a bigger issue.

On Wed, Feb 23, 2022 at 12:59 PM Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu> wrote:

> Hi Sam,
>
> I think that the proximate topic here is that Martin is noticing a mismatch
> between the in-document header (the "Updates:" header) and the prose of the
> document.  That's my fault; I sent you suggestions that removed the header
> but forgot to touch the prose at all, and if I had done so, I don't think
> Martin would have raised the topic (Martin, please correct me if I'm
> wrong).
>
> On the question of whether or not "updates" is correct, I think that
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tls/YZQWmP_8BDkacfy3O-qcy8EV2N0/
> (from a TLS WG co-chair) is a good summary -- the current "normal" for TLS
> is to not use the header for this sort of thing.
>
> It also notes that the question of what text (if any) to put in the ongoing
> 8446bis effort is more important, long-term, than whether to use the
> "updates" header here.  That is, RFC 8446 itself will probably only be
> current for a couple years and then the successor will be current, so any
> "updates" relationship would become stale at that point.
>
> -Ben
>
> P.S. Sean also mentioned draft-ietf-ace-coap-est in the linked message, and
> there are changes in flight for that document to refer to
> draft-ietf-kitten-tls-channel-bindings-for-tls13
>
> On Wed, Feb 23, 2022 at 03:26:00PM -0500, Sam Whited wrote:
> > I do not believe there was consensus one way or another on this.
> >
> > The strong feedback was by one or two members of the TLS working group
> > and I do not believe it was correct or represented consensus. Unless
> > those people that complained *do* represent consensus among that working
> > group and intend to block publication of this document based on it (and
> > if they do, I wish they had said so earlier during the discussion and
> > not let the matter drop), I would like it to move forward with the
> > "updates" line in place if at all possible.
> >
> > —Sam
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 23, 2022, at 14:43, Benjamin Kaduk wrote:
> > > On Wed, Feb 23, 2022 at 11:41:36AM -0800, Martin Duke via
> > > Datatracker wrote:
> > >> Martin Duke has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-ietf-kitten-tls-channel-bindings-for-tls13-
> > >> 14: Discuss
> > >>
> > >> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> > >> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut
> > >> this introductory paragraph, however.)
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Please refer to
> > >> https://www.ietf.org/blog/handling-iesg-ballot-positions/ for more
> > >> information about how to handle DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> > >>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-kitten-tls-channel-bindings-for-tls13/
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> > >> -------
> > >> DISCUSS:
> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> > >> -------
> > >>
> > >> A simple thing: the document header should state that it updates
> > >> RFC 8446.
> > >
> > > No, it should not.
> > >
> > > This topic was discussed with the TLS WG and there was strong feedback
> > > that the use of the "Updates:" header was inappropriate.
> > >
> > > See the thread at
> > > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tls/vH74JoSGYpJv7Tcem60L3RtNa9U/
> > >
> > > -Ben
> >
> > --
> > Sam Whited
>