Re: [Last-Call] Last Call: BCP 83 PR-Action Against Dan Harkins

Brian E Carpenter <> Wed, 26 October 2022 19:46 UTC

Return-Path: <>
Received: from localhost (localhost []) by (Postfix) with ESMTP id 240D6C1522B8 for <>; Wed, 26 Oct 2022 12:46:26 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -5.11
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.11 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_DBL_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, URIBL_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, URI_DOTEDU=1.997] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key)
Received: from ([]) by localhost ( []) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IJp1K31V2xv4 for <>; Wed, 26 Oct 2022 12:46:21 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ( [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::632]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DA418C14CE33 for <>; Wed, 26 Oct 2022 12:46:21 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by with SMTP id g24so10204858plq.3 for <>; Wed, 26 Oct 2022 12:46:21 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:from:references:to :content-language:subject:user-agent:mime-version:date:message-id :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=VgkAuy2nFrswekoniNjzu60FH8SZgR8PWW12MDVvZBc=; b=mHI9B+QAcr4RugmJ0Tgx0EQBZIknjTvgkOiqoZqb5uppnXKyyZ9jVf1WhkxktR1LKD h0CpquH3nM3cN0Ubct7+WZI/oV+3XmNa5HLcAeX4HxPaNAgpLH8vR5jrQFVix+bJ5kD0 IK1y0toa3zDt9KmtZazrAMevSommB/nPjjR+/1uLt+PrRIvZvgyr0GSBK+V+yQVTMBx1 LKI5OfG248Q3PiJai4cQ9/5Ptaz/l2tMPuK4G1Y7Cv83sblwJpF7y2dRk4QOV7LvF0Ac s2I1LwX3ZduAX1lvXf+EL2UUUMHU6eBmRxGqnwqzFTs37HHDz2O31WAoGTGMWPvkce63 /Kvw==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:from:references:to :content-language:subject:user-agent:mime-version:date:message-id :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=VgkAuy2nFrswekoniNjzu60FH8SZgR8PWW12MDVvZBc=; b=43Hh4Xndx8idoruPLnESAr1U6NtevJ/BxEcxK2O5ms2fABeUIOoZDvfx25rFNKZ0ba kyMeVrN/IBFHteon9InKBCKJ2yk5kBLD10rnpi9zNG1uVRDdP2KPptHMUwpaVgDogj8A A+EJuivP41FA5jL8kfr1rJU0+UxkhoEltDLLY9xVKnud1DR/NqUvnL5ubK+KvEmdZZcq yBroO1k9B0+njImqNmcoELdR80ACKx2t9D+N4tRgcYa2y4P3VUaXfsJrRL0fnxnSFb8U ztYnBlhrkIMvULw3zgPqwkemMnJkyx/kSGGqQIk6ZQLnVUX2HVm0ZfxJKLKyo+CHpa8k 4OqQ==
X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf3QJxhs/QiTdROUGj/E7RYsTcQdsmGfokzI6s6uM6UeEJEkfVrK BDUYIF08USaQRHKVBAd8SCSQtOvEztdFtw==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM5huJ+1ssiPeM3jn+YBst+YSNpiLg5w+WdpyDA2DnQb22PoKtebkqGCOZfLAYS9aquMeK8QjA==
X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:a584:b0:186:6040:87f9 with SMTP id az4-20020a170902a58400b00186604087f9mr36508571plb.36.1666813581060; Wed, 26 Oct 2022 12:46:21 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ?IPV6:2406:e003:1124:9301:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:1124:9301:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by with ESMTPSA id i6-20020a170902c94600b00186e8526790sm330900pla.127.2022. (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 26 Oct 2022 12:46:19 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <>
Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2022 08:46:14 +1300
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.10.0
Content-Language: en-US
To: Valery Smyslov <>,
References: <> <0d5d01d8e90c$64070290$2c1507b0$>
From: Brian E Carpenter <>
In-Reply-To: <0d5d01d8e90c$64070290$2c1507b0$>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format="flowed"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Archived-At: <>
Subject: Re: [Last-Call] Last Call: BCP 83 PR-Action Against Dan Harkins
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.39
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF Last Calls <>
List-Unsubscribe: <>, <>
List-Archive: <>
List-Post: <>
List-Help: <>
List-Subscribe: <>, <>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2022 19:46:26 -0000


I'm not commenting further on the PR action as such. We are a diverse group of people and many here are not native speakers of the language. I suggest that using sarcasm or satire in this group is an ineffective and confusing method. If half the audience takes the sarcasm or the satire seriously, the argument will cancel itself out.

    Brian Carpenter

On 26-Oct-22 20:27, Valery Smyslov wrote:
> Hi,
> I do not support this PR action.
> I read the provided messages and I am not convinced that they justify the accusation of expressing racism.
> And while I admit that many of these messages are harsh and sarcastic and sometimes are on the verge of acceptable
> (definitely this verge is subjective), it seems to me that the sarcastic form of these messages was used by the author
> to make his arguments more expressive. The arguments themselves often look worth to consider.
> "Not only is it extremely cruel to persecute in this brief life those who do not think the way we do,
> but I do not know if it might be too presumptuous to declare their eternal damnation."
> Voltaire, A Treatise on Toleration (1763), translated by Richard Hooker
> (excerpt)
> or (full text)
> Regards,
> Valery Smyslov.
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: last-call [] On Behalf Of IETF Chair
>> Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2022 7:16 PM
>> To:
>> Subject: [Last-Call] Last Call: BCP 83 PR-Action Against Dan Harkins
>> Following community feedback after various incidents, as documented below, the
>> IESG has initiated a posting rights (PR) action that would restrict the posting
>> rights of Dan Harkins, as per the procedures found in BCP 83 (RFC 3683).
>> Specifically, his posting privileges to these lists would be suspended:
>> * admin-discuss
>> * gendispatch
>> * ietf
>> * terminology
>> In the IESG's opinion, this individual has a history of sending emails that are
>> inconsistent with the IETF Guidelines for Conduct (RFC 7154) and thereby
>> "disrupt the consensus-driven process" (RFC 3683). Among these are contributions
>> that:
>> * Express racism in the form of denying, belittling, and ridiculing anti-racist
>>    sentiment and efforts
>> * Are rude and abusive, and often amount to insulting ridicule
>> (Links to examples of such emails sent to the lists above during the last two
>> years are provided at the end of this email.)
>> Multiple attempts have been made to enter into a private discussion with this
>> individual, both by IESG and community members, to communicate disquiet with his
>> conduct on the lists. These attempts to restore respectful and courteous conduct
>> on the lists have been rebuffed with communication that can be considered both
>> antagonistic and hostile, and the pattern of behavior observed has continued.
>> The IESG also notes that the following actions have already been taken in
>> response to the individual's actions:
>> * Two I-Ds were removed from the public archive due to their offensive nature:
>>    (following these links displays the tombstone notice explaining their removal)
>> * His posting rights were restricted on the admin-discuss mailing list:
>> * A final public warning was issued on the gendispatch mailing list:
>> None of the attempts to discuss his participation style or warn the individual
>> have led to any improvements. The IESG therefore believes that a PR action is
>> the correct response to his continued problematic behavior across a number of
>> different lists.
>> The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits final
>> comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the
>> mailing lists by 27 October 2022. Exceptionally, comments may
>> be sent to instead. If sending private feedback to the IESG,
>> please indicate if you would be open to having your comments anonymized and
>> shared in a summary.
>> Please note: Comments should be limited to the criteria described in BCP 83,
>> notably on whether the individual in question has engaged in postings that are
>> "unprofessional commentary, regardless of the general subject" in a manner
>> disruptive enough to warrant this action.
>> Lars Eggert
>> IETF Chair, on behalf of the IESG
>> –-
>> Examples of problematic emails during the last two years include:
>> *
>> *
>> *
>> *
>> *
>> *
>> *
>> *
>> *
>> *
>> *
>> *
>> *
>> *
>> *
>> --
>> last-call mailing list