[Last-Call] Conway's Law, Was: Global whitelist was Re: Last Call: BCP 83 PR-Action Against

Phillip Hallam-Baker <phill@hallambaker.com> Tue, 25 October 2022 16:49 UTC

Return-Path: <hallam@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: last-call@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: last-call@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EA62C1522B6; Tue, 25 Oct 2022 09:49:25 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.408
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.408 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.248, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, RCVD_IN_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, URIBL_DBL_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, URIBL_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([50.223.129.194]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0eaTIojtj2GR; Tue, 25 Oct 2022 09:49:21 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-oi1-f180.google.com (mail-oi1-f180.google.com [209.85.167.180]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 98300C14CE33; Tue, 25 Oct 2022 09:49:21 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-oi1-f180.google.com with SMTP id g130so14925160oia.13; Tue, 25 Oct 2022 09:49:21 -0700 (PDT)
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=sJqFmf1mBCbL5k0JHmq3TURnA9d35I0xJPft+NNq1d0=; b=dcBNkHfSBpb5eu6Wvl11CsQmQ/VlAibVGMVzyfRrGYF0wCCA49++a3KGBhDMaJm51M jMO/Zds5XtzpvQtC/CBtUAo2nqpn3fw+lPS+2oc6VkvZ/WZReHzn0iw0lduhpymuHSoc PiKQ4Rm7QoCYsYRBi1lfzO32yJJKbib0YLcOEgNTtRGjzipXEEyrEp5OGVLSFp9xnhC8 Y23D1Evbj2qSukJFU0cdDB/1AFPy7LnicJEzTBoGCTYlIpYrDzk1iI0gmvWAi/Q3iqWG 7XxPmZOKteRazwN1tj33UaMU40v1H+0leaLD/phDw3Melmp0sOsmtDt21+sf3TEHIpc1 MWkQ==
X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf2nvJ7p7vM2gqsQzABEMDA+ILNnrzdXkoTHJX0euvKAbMtwDutJ WgTQcAo5cr02++pF6aYGyuUFkxnS20++UvsmmDA=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM53qvBQOosQ9fsNj8SvVpS1tS2hU52HbgiC/XSqy7MYryUcLFDtD8pEsDnLDcmVrTMO53wdLbU+dA6qRA0kGhA=
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:17a7:b0:355:3cba:7d41 with SMTP id bg39-20020a05680817a700b003553cba7d41mr18998075oib.244.1666716560651; Tue, 25 Oct 2022 09:49:20 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <850616311.908536.1666656130433@email.ionos.com> <963D4B7F-DCF4-41F0-9819-D079C607818D@yahoo.co.uk>
In-Reply-To: <963D4B7F-DCF4-41F0-9819-D079C607818D@yahoo.co.uk>
From: Phillip Hallam-Baker <phill@hallambaker.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2022 12:49:10 -0400
Message-ID: <CAMm+LwiGor+F+ps_FJu0ZMv4LnXX-LWpmHVe__hrQ-0N=iyRzA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Lloyd W <lloyd.wood=40yahoo.co.uk@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: Timothy Mcsweeney <tim@dropnumber.com>, last-call@ietf.org, IETF Chair <chair@ietf.org>, Tim Bray <tbray@textuality.com>, ietf <ietf@ietf.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000089fc7605ebdeb0e7"
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/last-call/bZMw4VI_Z2f5OzJdmLH63o1TsdI>
Subject: [Last-Call] Conway's Law, Was: Global whitelist was Re: Last Call: BCP 83 PR-Action Against
X-BeenThere: last-call@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.39
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF Last Calls <last-call.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/last-call>, <mailto:last-call-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/last-call/>
List-Post: <mailto:last-call@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:last-call-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/last-call>, <mailto:last-call-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2022 16:49:25 -0000

These terminology issues remind me of Conway's law which states that every
organization given the task of producing a design will create a design that
mirrors their organization structure.
I see that a great deal in IETF.

Surely a corollary is that the language used to describe the design also
has impact? I am thinking here of studies that show that speakers of
gendered languages react differently to physical objects depending on how
they are gendered,





On Tue, Oct 25, 2022 at 1:53 AM Lloyd W <lloyd.wood=
40yahoo.co.uk@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/global-whitelist
>
> interesting that the terminology furore of the past few years and the
> subsequent NIST recommendations (here: suggesting use of
> allowlist/denylist) have not reached far into the IETF.
>
> How is this list used?
>
> Lloyd Wood
> lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk
>
> On 25 Oct 2022, at 11:03, Timothy Mcsweeney <tim@dropnumber.com> wrote:
>
> I just checked the IETF mailing lists I'm subscribed to and one of my
> subscriptions was called the Global Whitelist.  Am I going to get in
> trouble for belonging to that list?
>
>