Re: [Last-Call] Last Call: BCP 83 PR-Action Against Dan Harkins

Phillip Hallam-Baker <> Mon, 03 October 2022 18:00 UTC

Return-Path: <>
Received: from localhost (localhost []) by (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DC2DC1524DD for <>; Mon, 3 Oct 2022 11:00:09 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.405
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.405 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.248, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, RCVD_IN_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, URIBL_DBL_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, URIBL_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no
Received: from ([]) by localhost ( []) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Zn5vPEJsnWXI for <>; Mon, 3 Oct 2022 11:00:05 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ( []) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CEDAFC1524D1 for <>; Mon, 3 Oct 2022 11:00:05 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-1324e7a1284so5184357fac.10 for <>; Mon, 03 Oct 2022 11:00:05 -0700 (PDT)
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date; bh=xbAk9XSNVrJm7UAt4vNJEfDg7EAEG4My+T8WwTiggaI=; b=NwOWcvwmdRllwSPouIes2UcgXDVg3CHHh3DkTJvlis79nb/CuqYMDfQTOpTuFDChuU FmCti5pZFlD/OwfGTMMlCwR8vVQM3250aZVLKbEX1IdnUdjklQN1HulaHxo4YIfGeHkp M2RY40M95qnz+/VI1Cm3OnEc6wGN0jXwe/RFOz8jiUJMevm7hfsLTQI2sodzLe53H0+T SWhsCRAEjvwRRmKJnCSh7yzu/YzkunZJ85Nmu95mp+Quk66cgbKEYFtVE3XHPs/k3bn8 SAYcbL74HJ5imRAgurhswFc7A/E1Y6M6qdHx361CpYE7sGjPKN9zzMGCKWm07LIg95eb 9W1Q==
X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf0nmlfWKiAAjG7qLvOmjir76RC4JCQfswcf+8RT60UOqrSzaRa2 12tCwmY3pyPIkQPJQCDxpAjfsimDWt0I08921jg=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM7SZKieJ3a59XeD1oqJVmKT7QwhdwA3XUMr0JFmkfzgGd6f82xjVv6n7E52hMsz/PEIhN0x3VkZg+XwMJe9Glw=
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6870:c210:b0:131:e1ab:2cfb with SMTP id z16-20020a056870c21000b00131e1ab2cfbmr5939273oae.244.1664820004947; Mon, 03 Oct 2022 11:00:04 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <>
In-Reply-To: <>
From: Phillip Hallam-Baker <>
Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2022 13:59:53 -0400
Message-ID: <>
To: Dan Harkins <>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000028cfa05ea251d7c"
Archived-At: <>
Subject: Re: [Last-Call] Last Call: BCP 83 PR-Action Against Dan Harkins
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.39
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF Last Calls <>
List-Unsubscribe: <>, <>
List-Archive: <>
List-Post: <>
List-Help: <>
List-Subscribe: <>, <>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2022 18:00:09 -0000

I really can't see what is supposed to be implausible about the notion that
nation states operate information engagement units. Spies spend their time
spying and remarkably little of that is 'espionage'.

Throwing out spurious conspiracy theories to muddy the waters to conceal a
real one is all part of the model.

When a large group of otherwise rational people start gibbering irrational
conspiracy theories about alien lizard people, high ranking politicians
harvesting adrenochrome, etc. etc. it is natural to ask where these ideas
are coming from and why they are not being rejected as the obvious nonsense
they are. The people promoting those theories are the exact same people
promoting the white replacement theory garbage you have been peddling.

I am not talking about lizard people or anything of the sort.

On Mon, Oct 3, 2022 at 12:44 PM Dan Harkins <> wrote:

>   Wow, what an incredible conspiracy theory! Truly astonishing.
>   I'm "regurgitating" "tropes" (note the loaded terms) in the
> service of nation state actors, one of which is a mistress of
> a Russian diplomat! It ultimately involves Hitler and the
> holocaust (of course it does!) and the removal or preservation
> of statues raised to honor the cause of slavery!
>   Yea, you're right. I don't believe any of this and I doubt
> anyone else does. I want to say you're trying to troll here
> but, sadly, I think you're serious. And seriously deluded.
> And I say this sincerely: you need help, seek out some mental
> health professional immediately.
>   regards,
>   Dan.
> On 10/3/22 9:17 AM, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
> A rejection of the IESG recommendation is not necessarily a repudiation of
> it. The facts might have changed as a result of the PR proposal. They have
> not but Dan could have chosen to react differently.
> I don't for a moment imagine that Dan is going to believe it, but together
> with some colleagues I have been following the emergence of some of the
> tropes he is regurgitating. At each point, there are agents of a nation
> state actor that have worked to amplify and extend the reach of ideas that
> would have otherwise quickly died.
> Nor are these agents particularly difficult to spot. One was part of
> Occupy, anonymous, BLM, the Sanders campaign, the Stein campaign, the
> Sanders campaign again and finally the Trump campaign in an 18 month
> period. She was also the mistress of a Russian diplomat, or at least his
> name was on the lease of her flat. These are the worst spies ever, they
> constantly tweet their activities and their meetings and they are the
> people that the 10-20,000 paid trolls work to direct attention towards.
> What these people are doing is working a tactic originally developed by
> David Irving who originally rose to fame on the back of 'Hitler's War'
> which in the first edition claims the holocaust happend but Hitler himself
> was not aware of it. As the subsequent libel action demonstrated, the claim
> itself was pure bad faith and obviously anti-Semitic in intent, but it was
> not anti-Semitic on its face.
> And these information engagement operations have frequently targeted both
> sides because the end goal is division, not (say) the removal or
> preservation of statues raised to honor the cause of slavery.
> The desire to be a part of a social group can be very powerful, so
> powerful in fact that some people are willing to sacrifice their
> principles, their reason or both. And we have created this vast
> communication engine which allows the unprincipled to exploit those desires
> on an unprecedented scale. And certain social media actors have chosen to
> enable those operations.
> On Mon, Oct 3, 2022 at 10:21 AM Murray S. Kucherawy <>
> wrote:
>> On Sun, Oct 2, 2022 at 9:24 PM Keith Moore <>
>> wrote:
>>> On 10/2/22 21:16, Timothy Mcsweeney wrote:
>>> > I have less trust now too, but for a completely different reason.  The
>>> originating email to this thread states that the IESG has already formed an
>>> opinion, (Dan is bad) thereby tainting the results of the poll, even if
>>> only subconsciously, so that those who may want to be seen in a favorable
>>> light by the IESG would naturally back up their previously expoused
>>> decision and respond accordingly.
>>> >
>>> > Where the originating email goes on to describe that the IESG does not
>>> like to be rebuffed with communication that can be considered both
>>> > antagonistic and hostile, it puts the poll responder on notice to get
>>> in line.
>>> +1.
>>> In a normal Last Call, anyone is free to object without significant
>>> reprisal.    In this case, anyone can see that by objecting they'd be
>>> courting disfavor from those in power.   That's not a consensus call at
>>> all.
>> I don't agree with the premise.  Any Last Call is in essence a statement
>> that the IESG is preparing to take some action it believes is appropriate
>> and justified, and wants (or, if you prefer, is required) to test community
>> consensus on that decision.  That could be a WG being chartered, a document
>> approaching readiness for publication as an RFC, or a PR action for which
>> supporting evidence appears to exist.  This is no different.
>> I also don't particularly care for the insinuation that there might be
>> reprisals ("disfavor") if the community decides the IESG got it wrong.  If
>> the consensus goes against this action, then we'll just end up having to
>> figure out where we go from here.  That presumes a lack of integrity.  Were
>> I to engage in such reprisals, I would expect to be recalled.
>> -MSK
>> --
>> last-call mailing list
> --
> "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to
> escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius